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A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

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Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sunni Islamic art doesn't depict humans or animals, but my understanding is that's actually not a universal characteristic of Islam. You'd know better than I do, but Ken White (who is not a Muslim) pretty stridently takes the university to task for universalizing the anti-art stance to all of Islam, as opposed to the specific sects involved. Is he wrong?

No, he's not wrong. It's definitely not a universal stance. My own belief (based on my sect) is that the depictions that the Prophet (PBUH) banned were done so to discourage idolatry among muslims (much more relevant at that time than now). Beyond that, there is little to suggest that Islam explicitly forbids art depicting humans. In the case of prophets though, I think it is discouraged (by muslims) largely to preve…

Gotcha. This is super helpful, thank you so much for taking the time.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#262
post #232
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you consider a painting of someone which is not mocking them to be mocking them?

Because she knew it's prohibited and it's not what we do and everyone seems to be taking their free speech dig at our prophet and I would assume this is no different, because there is literally no reason to bring that image. However, I think they should have left the class and contacted her regarding this subject and firing her probably was an overkill and done to make the problem go away, though not sure why the stu…

> Because she knew it's prohibited

Not it isn't. Teaching art is totally legal in Minnesota.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#263
post #232
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you consider a painting of someone which is not mocking them to be mocking them?

Because she knew it's prohibited and it's not what we do and everyone seems to be taking their free speech dig at our prophet and I would assume this is no different, because there is literally no reason to bring that image. However, I think they should have left the class and contacted her regarding this subject and firing her probably was an overkill and done to make the problem go away, though not sure why the stu…

It seems that the case for banning it is not universal among believers, and might be differently portrayed as a case for not worshipping it (or any other image).

The reason for "bringing it" to an art history class is that it is historical art.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#264
post #16

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Thus apparently extends to gender or rather sexuality as well recently. I've been banned for asking why my sexuality - heterosexual, is excluded, actually not even asked why but if a flag representing my sexuality existed, since there were a bunch of flags that represented every possible spectrum, even asexuality. I am not at all racist, my best friend has dark skin, but I also can't help but notice that on social ne…

> I am not at all racist, my best friend has dark skin, but I also can't help but notice that on social networks there's always that black* group/tag/community never do you see white,red, yellow, only ever black. I do find that quite racist and exclusive. That is not remotely true, if I log into Reddit I can find subreddits with white, black, Spanish, German, Japanese, Indian, French, Jamaican, etc. topics as well se…

> I don’t think Native Americans go by red or East Asian people yellow as well honestly.

You're wrong about that; the Chinese do refer to themselves as yellow. (It's not a native tradition there - it's taken from the old Western taxonomy. But it's still current.)

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#265
post #178

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3-5 year contracts are maybe better than employment at will for faculty but they are of a kind with deleveraging the profession vis a vis the institution. The institutional character has shifted to big-E Education. Like big-H Health it is a rationalization of the industry that disempowers the "productive" professionals in favor of the "managerial" professionals (administrators) who manage the economic relationships (…

Honestly I feel like it gives me more leverage. Every 3-5 years the administration has to be ready for me to walk, and they need to make competitive offers to keep me. These are not like tenured positions that only open up once a generation, so it's actually worthwhile to see what else is out there, so threats to leave for greener pastures are more credible.

>Every 3-5 years the administration has to be ready for me to walk, and they need to make competitive offers to keep me.

That is easy to say when you don't have family. Children don't do well being pulled out of school and moved to different school, they can suffer academically, emotionally and socially from having their lives disrupted. Then you have to consider your spouses career.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#266
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a gorgeous piece of art and I am truly surprised that even the faithful would see this as blasphemous. Islamic art is really underappreciated in the west.

That's definitely not Islamic art, though. Islamic art quite notably does not depict humans or animals, and instead combines calligraphy and geometric patterns (and floral, maybe? I'm not entirely sure). You should definitely check that out too, though, it's beautiful! As for this art piece, I think it would certainly cause some controversy. I'm a Muslim myself, and afaik depictions of living beings are discouraged,…

[deleted]

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#267
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American slavery was around 15-20 generations ago Maybe you missed where I said the last person born into slavery died in living memory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_last_survivors_of_Am... But the discussion of slavery kind of misses the larger point; that systemic discrimination was not in fact dismantled in America with the end of chattel slavery. Other systems replaced the intent, and those persisted…

I gave you the data that shows your claims of generational wealth trickling through to an entire race of people, are false. You haven't addressed that. You are the one making the argument that we need racial discrimination to right past wrongs. I gave you the reasons that is not only immoral, but unworkable. So if you have some method to make your vision of present & future racial discrimination a net benefit for soc…

You supplied three links about how wealthy families lose fortunes over time, I don't think they're really relevant to the discussion. They don't address anything we're talking about here, which is how some groups are systemically held back by building wealth in the first place.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's definitely not Islamic art, though. Islamic art quite notably does not depict humans or animals, and instead combines calligraphy and geometric patterns (and floral, maybe? I'm not entirely sure). You should definitely check that out too, though, it's beautiful! As for this art piece, I think it would certainly cause some controversy. I'm a Muslim myself, and afaik depictions of living beings are discouraged,…

Sunni Islamic art doesn't depict humans or animals, but my understanding is that's actually not a universal characteristic of Islam. You'd know better than I do, but Ken White (who is not a Muslim) pretty stridently takes the university to task for universalizing the anti-art stance to all of Islam, as opposed to the specific sects involved. Is he wrong?

He's wront imo, and it's important to keep in mind the almost complete opposition in belief between sunni islam and shiism, w.r.t idolatry and iconoclasm. The difference is so wide that I don't think it makes sense to speak about a universal islamic characteristic on that subject.

Just as an example, in sunnism even the grave of the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) is basically completely anonymous and unremarkable, to the point where you wouldn't know about it even if you were right in front of it. That's to avoid any grave worshiping, or ritualistic "pilgrimage."

Shiism, on the other hand, involves a LOT of rituals around saint worshipping, huge shrines, and important relics. Because of that, representations of saints and even the prophet are a lot, lot less problematic (and even mainstream, with portraits of Husayn being common in religious ceremonies). Even then, Persian art was historically even less restrictive than the mainstream modern shia tendency of not really representing the prophet itself anymore.

Now, you might say that this proves Ken White's point, but it really doesn't!. The reality is that for most muslims, sunnism being the biggest denomination by far, there is really no debate that this type of representation is completely forbidden. There is also virtually no disagreement on the subject between the different sunni branches (who usually are pretty similar in general anyways). The only rift is between sunnis and shias, but it is so wide that it makes no sense to even lump the two groups together in this conversation. It's not just a sectarian disagreement over interpretation that could be open for debate, it's almost two completely different approaches and beliefs.

So basically those "specific sects" would basically include 99.99% of practicing sunnis, all branches of sunnism, and every sunni religious authority. That's more than 80-85% of muslims, including shias. So there is definitely some universality of opinion here.

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