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The strange case of Britain’s demise

economist.com

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Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#261

Post by akiselev »

theGnuMe wrote: post #187
dignick wrote: post #145

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

Because the Tories will make things better? I mean they've had enough time at bat that it is obvious they can't.

Didn't the Tories run on making things worse 13 years ago (austerity)? Thanks to COVID, Brexit, and the war in Ukraine, they have succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#262

Post by toiletfuneral »

makomk wrote: post #127
petesergeant wrote: post #4

I feel like the article lays it out pretty well? It’s a government who’s been in power too long, whose talent base was massively thinned by a Brexit Purity witch hunt and the impossibility of delivering the Brexit fairy-tale, and who weren’t simply ejected at the last election because of Corbyn’s overwhelming unpopularity.

The article is part of the problem. UK politics and the media narratives around it have beeen utterly wrecked by the fight over Brexit and the attempts to give its creators the boot. For example, take this claim: "Investment is down and inflation higher than it would have been inside the European Union." The UK's inflation in the year to November 2022 was 10.7%, compared to 10.1% in the Eurozone. It just doesn't seem…

No post body was provided.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#263

Post by ben_w »

908B64B197 wrote: post #191
dignick wrote: post #145

Like in the US, democracy in the United Kingdom is faltering. Our first past the post electoral system means the Tories can retain power with a third of the (active) electorate voting for them. Labour believes first past the post serves them well, but it doesn’t, because they would have been leading a coalition government in the last several elections under Proportional Representation. Instead it requires Labour to b…

>Now that the implications are becoming clear, a majority want to return to the EU Why not simply have regional votes to separate from the UK and join the EU? Scotland tried not that long ago.

Because the voting map looked like this, and the UK just can't do that kind of subdivision:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Un...

Also, look how narrow the margins are on that scale bar. Most of those regions would need to be further subdivided, and the whole of the UK would end up like Baarle-Nassau: Baarle-Nassau https://maps.app.goo.gl/aRn73rm1cz2fHznt7?g_st=ic

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#264

Post by Silhouette »

aidos wrote: post #194
narag wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electoral systems are very difficult to change. The party with enough votes to lead the change isn't going to be interested, because it's the system that put them in that position. Edit: So we're talking electoral systems, referenda have a big caveat. Usually you vote a goal, but you don't vote how it's going to be implemented. The brexit was sold as a measure against Brussels' regulation and taxes...

The Uk had a referendum in 2011 to change the system and voted fairly conclusively to stick with first past the post. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternat...

There was a referendum to change the voting system to Alternative Vote.

It's important to remember that the change on offer was itself deeply flawed. It was trying to apply a reasonable system for electing one person to elect a whole Parliament. However AV is not a form of proportional representation and would probably have resulted in an even less proportionate cohort of MPs at the following general election had the referendum result been the other way.

Some people were arguing at the time that it was a useful first step to establish popular support for the principle that FPTP had to go but others were arguing that AV was a poisoned chalice and voting for it implied that it was an acceptable alternative and would end the debate for a generation without really fixing the problem.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#266

Post by rjh29 »

tailspin2019 wrote: post #125
hermitcrab wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>not a failure of voters I disagree. That Brexit was a massive con was obvious to anyone paying the slightest bit of attention. But the electorate voted for it anyway.

I disagree. I voted against it, but to properly have an informed enough opinion on it really required a good understanding of our economy and how it interacted with that of the EUs. I believe Brexit was such a complex issue that most normal voters could not be expected to be able to be informed enough to actually weigh up the decision by any useful means other than relying on superficial emotional decision making or…

I wish all political discussion was as nuanced and intelligent as your comment.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#267

Post by hermitcrab »

sealeck wrote: post #116
prof-dr-ir wrote: post #35

As a former inhabitant of England, I always thought that those in charge suffered from a uniquely wide 'competence gap' which I would like to define as the difference between someone's self-perceived competence and someone's actual competence. (The term is probably useful more broadly...) Maybe it is the historically class-based society alluded to in the article, but it always stunned me how those at the top, and in…

I personally think that the problem is that our political class consists almost entirely of humanities-educated politicians. People (who presumably have humanities degrees) will say things like "politicians don't need to be experts" and the even more facile (well, I am really paraphrasing here) "why do you need an understanding of the subject matter to decide what actions to take". If you look at COVID-19 and climate…

Ex-minister Rory Stewart said that (paraphrasing from memory) ministers don't know what they are doing because they don't stay in the job long enough. By the time they get to the point they start to understand what they need to do they are either sacked or promoted to another ministry.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#268

Post by astrange »

JPKab wrote: post #230
nailer wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re wondering too: gerontocracy is rule by the elderly. And that’s indeed a good description of the US right now.

We traded one wrinkly liar the media held accountable for another wrinkly liar the media views as their grandpa.

Bothsides posting should have stopped around 2005. There's nothing impressive about telling people how above it all you are.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#269

Post by digianarchist »

hermitcrab wrote: post #251
digianarchist wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another rewrite of history. He backed Remain.

Did he? Any support he gave was so tepid, I barely noticed.

He made more media appearances than Alan Johnson who was running Labour’s Remain campaign.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#270

Post by mixtur2021 »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #236
mixtur2021 wrote: post #226

Another day, another anti UK/doomer post on HN. Folks have touched upon this already but a real issue is the chattering classes can simply not get over Brexit. Everything is seen through the prism of either supporting remain or leave. Throw in some confirmation bias. The Economist is particularly guilty here. I don't follow this relish in talking your country down and having such click bait doomer titles - "Britain's…

What is your outlook for the UK? How do you get over the tribalism? And how can the UK thrive outside the EU?

Thanks for asking!

I am not super optimistic in the short/medium term (5+ years) at least. There are clear structural headwinds which anyone would be foolish to deny. This doesn't mean the country is ending. The country will still remain a fantastic place to live in the grand scheme of things. Once inflation settles down, a lot of the current issues will settle down (strikes et al). The inflation while exasperated no doubt by Brexit is primarily caused by energy crisis + lockdowns.

On tribalism, it is tricky. Most of the discourse I find in the Anglosphere is similarly negative and tribalistic. Cutting down on news overall is a good tactic I won't lie + reading comments sections (HN is my vice, clearly). I stay away from Guardian and the Mail who love to wind up their audience.

On thriving outside of the UK, the UK needs to forge strong trade deals and have a visa system which supports skilled immigration (they are making good progress here). More funding/support in place for commercialising the great innovations happening in many of the UK universities (a significant advantage). More competitive taxation rates. Unfortunately, Truss totally messed this up which means we are probably saddled with high taxation without corresponding supply side reforms for a good period.

Domestically, the NHS needs to be reformed and a system found on the continent followed (note: not the awful US model).

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