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US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

energy.gov

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Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#261

Post by ridgeguy »

brofallon wrote: post #30

I'm still a little unclear on the benefits that fusion offers compared to things like wind and solar. I understand that we need to develop better storage technologies for the energy produced by wind and solar, but that seems so much easier than the challenges currently facing fusion. Wind and solar just seem so far ahead of fusion already - they're pretty cheap and very widely deployed on a global scale. In compariso…

I think when comparing PV/wind to nuclear (fusion or fission) generation, we should include the cost of storage for renewables in the comparison.

Renewable generation + storage gives a system that's capable of meeting base load needs, just as nuclear generation does. Cost comparisons among base load-capable technologies is a better way to evaluate the economics, IMHO.

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#262

Post by eklitzke »

spullara wrote: post #165
bmmayer1 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a stupid question but I don't know anything about fusion: How is it possible for X energy to create X+Y energy in output? Doesn't that violate some fundamental law of physics?

If you look at the mass before of their fuel, 1 deuterium atom + 1 tritium atom: 2.01410177811 u + 3.01604928 u = 5.03015105811 u vs the mass of the fusion products of 1 helium atom and 1 neutron: 4.002602 u + 1.008 u = 5.010602 u You'll notice that even though we started with 5 neutrons and 2 protons and ended up with the same number there was some additional binding energy that is unaccounted for in the new configu…

Tangentially related, but I think this is an interesting fact, all the atoms in our universe/galaxy/solar system with a mass up to that of iron are formed in the core of stars in stellar fusion. Hydrogen fuses into helium, and as a star nears the end of its lifetime you get heavier elements like lithium, carbon, and so on. Under normal stellar fusion no elements heavier than iron will be produced, and iron is only element number 25. If you just looked at nucleosynthesis through the lens of stellar fusion, it isn't obvious that there should be any heaver-than-iron atoms at all in the universe.

These heaver-than-iron elements are created in a very interesting and exotic process. When a large enough star dies it explodes in a supernova, and a huge amount of energy and neutrons are released in a very short period of time. This supernova generates enough energy and neutron material that small amounts of heavier elements like gold, platinum, etc. are created through exotic nuclear fusion reactions, even though these heavy fusion reactions are energy-absorbing.

It's interesting to think when you're wearing jewelry made from gold or platinum, all of those atoms in your jewelry were created during the death of a star.

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#263

Post by pmarreck »

Palpatineli wrote: post #196

Calling this fusion ignition is stupid. Laser fusion is unlike other fusion devices in that the efficiency of laser is extremely low. It is true that the reaction created 3MJ when the laser energy input INTO THE REACTION CHAMBER is 2MJ. But the whole laser system took 300MJ to run for this one shot. Thus the real Q value is extremely low compared to other fusion methods.

I'm not sure I understand your criticism

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#264

Post by valine »

johnthuss wrote: post #166

"NIF, the world’s largest and most energetic laser system...-located at LLNL in Livermore, Calif.—is the size of a sports stadium" That's an important piece of information - the thing is gigantic!

Even if it doesn’t get smaller (unlikely), we as a society build stadiums all the time. Large construction projects are a small price to pay for abundant clean energy.

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#265

Post by ceejayoz »

maybelsyrup wrote: post #199
tmccrary55 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has pretty conclusively shown that they aren't even close to the same league as the US in terms of warfare. Like comparing an amateur pickup basketball team to the Chicago Bulls.

Uh what US warfare have you been watching? Your analogy only works if it’s the like the 2000-200 Bulls (15-67).

> Uh what US warfare have you been watching?

Russia is struggling with Ukraine and the NATO weaponry they've been gifted. 100 mile supply lines proved too much, and they failed entirely to achieve air superiority.

There's zero reason to think they'd do better against the US more directly.

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#266

Post by drumhead »

typon wrote: post #138

This makes me feel America is back. This is a big achievement and should not be underplayed whatsoever. Whichever country achieves practical fusion is going to be dominant in the next century.

America never went away. The major scientific and tecnological achievements of the the last 30 years are virtually all American.

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#267

Post by delaaxe »

bmmayer1 wrote: post #103
jkelleyrtp wrote: post #33

> LLNL’s experiment surpassed the fusion threshold by delivering 2.05 megajoules (MJ) of energy to the target, resulting in 3.15 MJ of fusion energy output, demonstrating for the first time a most fundamental science basis for inertial fusion energy (IFE) Yesterday, everyone was complaining about the 2.2:2.0 ratio, but now we're working with 3.15:2.05. With modern lasers, that'd be a total Q of 0.375 assuming 100% ef…

This is a stupid question but I don't know anything about fusion: How is it possible for X energy to create X+Y energy in output? Doesn't that violate some fundamental law of physics?

Latest xkcd: https://xkcd.com/2710/

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#268

Post by dogma1138 »

willis936 wrote: post #236
dogma1138 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the scale and reactor design, we have really good examples of run away fusion reactions. Run away reactions are easy, controlled ones are hard. And whilst I won’t doubt that if fusion ever becomes commercially viable the reactors would be walk away safe it doesn’t mean that you don’t need to account for that in your design.

What is an example of a run away fusion reaction?

The US strategic arsenal.

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#269

Post by JKCalhoun »

rowanG077 wrote: post #231
azinman2 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the bottleneck for fusion money though?

money is always the bottleneck in some sense. There are diminishing returns but in general more money will make it happen faster.

You might be right — we threw enough money and put humans on the Moon. The Manhattan Project was well funded and produced results as well.

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#270

Post by pmarreck »

MrFoof wrote: post #220

I’m glad we might see fission power plants in my lifetime (next 30-50 years). My father still finds it novel that he basically gets to wear Dick Tracy’s watch. Yet I’m concerned that shortly thereafter, the giant robotic laser death spiders will destroy entire cities. This might also be be before we’ve built the arcologies to launch into outer space to escape the giant robot laser death spiders.

> fission power

you probably meant "fusion"

> My father still finds it novel that he basically gets to wear Dick Tracy’s watch.

Well, except for the front-facing camera, but that's trivial to add at this point. And as a 50 year old, I agree. I feel like being incarnated in '72 has gotten me ethereal tickets to the greatest technological expansion/brouhaha in all of human history, and I don't know what my soul did to deserve this pleasure. Everything I've been into as a kid "before it was cool" has absolutely exploded: Computers, electronic music, gaming, telecom, AI, green energy/electric cars... but also science, medicine, etc. are making tremendous progress (I'm down 35 lbs thanks to Mounjaro, a brand new drug). Hell, even that weird side interest in UFO's (one of the first sections of the library I discovered as a kid) has paid dividends with the USG finally admitting they're real. BRB, I have to pinch myself. Unironic "what a time to be alive"!

> giant robot laser death spiders

you should probably worry more about the silent airborne drone army suicide bombers first. (What was the movie that actually featured a scene with those, btw? I think it had Morgan Freeman? EDIT: Found it, thanks to those other technological wonders, Google and YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40JFxhhJEYk)

There will always be dangers with progress. Two steps forward, one step back. But I leave you with this. I asked ChatGPT to summarize this article as a sarcastic poem https://newsletter.mollywhite.net/p/everything-sam-bankman-f... and here's what it gave me, and I'm still chuckling about how awesome this is:

Sam Bankman-Fried talks a lot

But it's all just hot air

He tries to seem transparent

But he's just trying to repair

His reputation, once so grand

Is now as tarnished as can be

He's just a fraud, don't be fooled

By his attempts at publicity.

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