Wow, NY finally does something right.
This will fail on appeal. NYC had every right to require vaccines.
NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay
261–270 of 443 posts
Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay
#262Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's the punishment for that SC when a later SC overrules it , three new justices later? And while we're at it, are we also creating a three strikes law for lower courts that get overruled by the SC three times? And what about the courts below them ? What if they get overruled by a higher court... which in turn gets overruled by the SC? I can't wait to keep track of all this ;)
The biggest risk would be that a politician will be wrongfully denied participation when they actually were fit for the job. That's a smaller price to pay than living with a politician who works against the constitution.
Blind adherence to a document written ~200 years ago, in a world that has vastly changed cultural and social norms is incredibly short sighted. People elect politicians based on trust, and if the politicians decide to pass a law that is the will of the people manifested.
Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
>a government order must also avoid being arbitrary or capricious There were two separate orders. The first was for public employees, and the second was for private employees. I agree that the second was capricious, but the first was consistent. The city is allowed to fire city employees. Maybe something about it is unconstitutional, but the ruling completely handwaves this, as well as the justification for backpay.
> The city is allowed to fire city employees. The city union disagrees rather strongly with that :) In particular, the city’s contract with these workers does not require them to be vaccinated. If your boss sprung a new rule on you and then fired you for not following it, you would be pretty upset too. Especially if it required you to take actions that you thought were potentially risky to your own personal health an…
>The city union disagrees rather strongly with that
Do they? From what I understand these employees aren't being represented by the union. Also, the ruling acknowledges that they did bargain with the union and are therefore not finding a breach of contract.
>Having multiple separate orders that result in an unconstitutional outcome is not really different from having a single unconstitutional order. I don’t know why you keep bringing that up; it’s not very interesting.
My point is that it's not unconstitutional for the city to fire a city employee.
Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay
#264Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it is important to understand that not all people who against vax mandates are anti-vaxers.
I thought about this for several moments, and I disagree. Vaccines offer some personal protection but predominantly become effective by achieving herd immunity. Vaccine hesitancy undermines this goal and weakens the system. Being pro-vaccine is senseless without being in favor of enough people being vaccinated to provide strong immunity, including for those who cannot be vaccinated due to medical complications. Even…
The etymology of vaccine comes from vacca, which is Latin for cow. Vaccines were originally discovered after finding that milkmaids seemed somehow immune to smallpox, which otherwise not only made people gravely ill but had a mortality rate upwards of 30%. The reason, it was discovered, is that they were regularly exposed to cowpox which sufficiently strengthened their immune systems to provide effective immunity to smallpox. And thus the field was born.
Herd immunity does not make vaccines work better, but is a tertiary effect whereby unvaccinated individuals can receive effective protection simply by living in an area with a high vaccination rate. In extreme cases (such as with smallpox) diseases can even be completely eliminated, but this requires extremely effective vaccines that prevent infection and spread, vaccines that are robust against mutations, and diseases that are unlikely to be able to exist without humans. None of these factors apply to COVID or the vaccines developed for it.
Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
I thought about this for several moments, and I disagree. Vaccines offer some personal protection but predominantly become effective by achieving herd immunity. Vaccine hesitancy undermines this goal and weakens the system. Being pro-vaccine is senseless without being in favor of enough people being vaccinated to provide strong immunity, including for those who cannot be vaccinated due to medical complications. Even…
This argument is useless in the face of the COVID shots because they do not prevent transmission, an important factor in herd immunity being effective. Being anti-vax-mandate for an ineffective vaccine is not anti-vax in any way.
Your lack of understanding how vaccines work belies your argument. No vaccine prevents transmission. That makes no sense. In order to prevent transmission, your immune system must prevent any infection, regardless of how minor. No vaccine guarantees absolute prevention from infection. Depending on mode of transmission, any infection can be transmissible. Thus any vaccine may not prevent transmission, for anything.
Ask yourself what the efficacy would need to be for you to be pro-vax-mandate. I suspect I already know the answer.
Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
> At the core, all social structure is built on the threat of violence Cripes. Nope. If this was true, how do you explain backyard cookouts, pool parties, trick-or-treating, or Christmas present exchanges? How do you explain folk dance festivals, buskers, and non-royal weddings? How on earth do you explain hugs?
Because every stick needs a carrot. Positive reinforcement is not antithetical to the threat of violence and can go hand-in-hand. If you're good to me I'll treat you like family. But violate that peace and me and my clan will come down on you with furious anger. That's how people have lived for time immemorial.
Even so, violence isn't so much the basis for society itself, just the govt. And either way, it's only how outliers are dealt with. Most of what most people do all day every day is constrained by things like their family and peers' expectations and their commitments. I'd say social structures are primarily based on cultural norms.
Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
I thought about this for several moments, and I disagree. Vaccines offer some personal protection but predominantly become effective by achieving herd immunity. Vaccine hesitancy undermines this goal and weakens the system. Being pro-vaccine is senseless without being in favor of enough people being vaccinated to provide strong immunity, including for those who cannot be vaccinated due to medical complications. Even…
Ok I have more vaccines then the law requires because I went places where it made sense to get more shots for more disease. I have not touched the COVID shot because I did not trust it for these reasons: - vaccines take years to test not months - there were new untested biotech involved - in short order I was being told that it does not work for this flavor of COVID. And now it is acknowledged to not protect you or p…
I am not debating the efficacy of a particular vaccine and I care not for your rationale -- save your breath.
Your arguments, however you feel may be justified, are not in favor of vaccination, and by definition are anti-vax. Ask yourself what would need to be different for you to be in favor.
Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay
#268They took people's livelyhoods away, and now they gotta pay.
When you willingly refuse to get vaccinated, and are thus more likely to catch and spread COVID, shouldn't we make you pay for any lives you've contributed to taking away?
Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
People were rabidly cheering it on too. Police going around shutting playgrounds and arresting parents for playing outdoors with their children, while at the same time the politicians they voted for were constantly and egregiously shown to be flouting the rules on frivolities, parties, travel, fun. And there were excuses for the politicians and bloodlust for the commoner trying to exercise or raise their child. Absol…
Quoted post unavailable.
> Citation? This seems like an anti-mandate talking point more than a reality.
This isn't in good faith so it's clearly not going to change your opinion about anything. It's trivial to google and it was not an uncommon story in the news over the past few years. Literally the top google result of my first trivial search:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-officer-arrested-park-throw...
> January 6th?
Also a bad faith non-sequitur.
If you have any actual coherent and rational questions or comments about what I wrote, I am more than happy to talk about it. Sadly you don't appear to be intellectually equipped to cope with pondering these issues though.
Re: NY Supreme Court reinstates NYC's fired unvaccinated employees, orders backpay
#270Earlier quoted context omitted.
[citation needed] According to the CDC, HHS, Johns-Hopkins and every single medical school, hospital and scientific organization in the US, as well as 224M vaccinated US citizens, the COVID vaccines are effective at preventing severe disease, hospitalization, and death.
I didn’t claim it wasn’t effective at those things as I’m sure you know. My comment was about effectiveness in reducing infection and transmission. This is the only logical and “potentially” ethical (in some twisted peoples heads) basis for a vaccine mandate. It has now been totally debunked. I literally quoted a linked article issued by the NY Supreme Court for your citation.
> My comment was about effectiveness in reducing infection and transmission.
This is not the same as
>>> "Being vaccinated does not prevent an individual from contracting or transmitting Covid-19"
Being vaccinated does not 100% prevent infection and transmission, but it does reduce the likelihood of infection and transmission by about half. The fact is the vaccines are effective in reducing infection and transmission. Your assertion that "the vaccine barely moves the needle on transmission if at all," is gross exaggeration at best and entirely false at worst. The science of immunology and vaccines is sound and well-established. The risk of adverse effects from vaccines is vanishingly small, while the likely benefit of reduced risk of infection, severity of illness, hospitalization and death is huge.
The COVID vaccines are nothing short of a miracle of modern medicine. The only grave problem here is laymen making uninformed medical decisions based solely on political tribalism and failed political ideologies, evangelizing their logically unsound and medically ignorant position, and refusing to cooperate with the interests of public health while needlessly putting themselves and others at significantly increased chances of infection, severe illness and/or death. This is the very definition of anti-social behavior, placing one's ego and whims above the needs of all others, and not caring whether others get sick, suffer and die.