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Aging programmer

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Re: Aging programmer

#261

Post by kbcool »

w4ffl35 wrote: post #171
StevePerkins wrote: post #97

I'm approaching 50. Just a scant decade away from being old enough to tap my retirement accounts and have the OPTION to retire. These next couple of years look like they might not be fun, but overall it looks like I'm actually going to make it. For most of my career, I've been told (and I believed) that I would probably get forced out of a hands-on individual contributor role as I aged. During the late-2000's, I even…

the thing that gets frustrating as i age are interviews and code challenges. i'd really prefer a certification that proves i can do xyz which i take once (per year? in my life?). then just decide if you like me based on personality and communication. i have over 200 repositories etc. its redundant, and random code challenges that differ from employer to employer prove next to nothing. 20 years ago it was the norm for…

I'm an older engineer too and I am very aware of how frustrating this can be for techs of all ages so I made our screening test less fizzbuzz, do my work for me and gotcha questions and more real world, challenging, engaging and most of all interesting.

Examples include: How would you solve this at a high level, here's some code we know is broken, how would you both fix and improve it etc.

After all, both parties are being screened.

The other upside is that we also get to gauge communication and analytical skills not just production line coding.

Even after doing this, over the years I have seen a good 30% refuse to do it or just ghost at this point for whatever reason. Afterall, I've done it myself a number of times.

Re: Aging programmer

#262

Post by majormajor »

PheonixPharts wrote: post #210
derangedHorse wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the general sentiment is that the interview process for software engineers suck but almost no one wants to take a chance trying to develop a new way to interview. It’s somewhat understandable though since devising a new process can’t be to people focused less you inherit too much bias from the interviewer, nor can they be boiled down to a objective metric or else people may fall into inflexible dogmatic practices…

> almost no one wants to take a chance trying to develop a new way to interview. I'm guessing your in the under 40 camp, but interviews did used to be better . In the early days of the startup explosion interviews where much better. The biggest signal at the time was having an active github profile or otherwise existing portfolio of code. The strongest signal back then was serious contribution to any open source proj…

Fizzbuzz as a predecessor to whiteboard DS/algo problems was different than my recollection, so I did some digging.

2007: this is when I first encountered fizzbuzz as an idea https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

2005 article linked from there: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/01/27/news-58/

That second article is interesting in this conversation because it's main contention is that the vast majority of any applicants to any position you're trying to hire for are going to be terrible.

Which is the phenomenon seen by others as well and discussed in Atwood's 2007 one.

They don't really talk about the Google style DS/algo problems, so yeah, seems like those became popular later.

But it suggests the hiring experience for companies has long been awful.

The sort of experience you had - a good conversation about a detailed relevant technical area - is something that I've never personally found common when trying to hire. Most candidates still aren't great if you're looking to do even moderately greenfield development (even if not particularly interesting - just being able to put together a decent scaffold of an idea).

Leetcode - the site - is an interesting phenomenon because it's full of problems far harder than any I've seen in practice at FAANGs and similar. Stuff I've encountered in the real world seems to fall into the Easy or Medium buckets.

After being at a BigCo and hiring some people who aced whiteboard coding and failed on simple everyday things, though, I certainly would never again use something like that as the only factor.

Re: Aging programmer

#263

Post by lawgimenez »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #245
shakezula wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to agree with parent comment. Leet code interviews, while sometimes obnoxious, are still good exercises. I have learned a lot of nuanced takes from a leet code interview with an interesting question.

OK, fair 'nuff. Right now, I'm working on a data parser for a backend API that fetches a JSON response, using the built-in NSURLSession stuff, turns it into a Swift Dictionary, then I sort through that Dictionary, and emit a bunch of Swift struct instances for use by the API consumer. The reason for this, is because the API that I wrote about seven years ago, is giving us performance problems. I wrote about that in t…

I currently started a basic iOS project with SwiftUI and it is just utterly painful to work with. I kinda hate mobile development because of this reactive roadmap shit. Why would anyone code a UI. I’m old now and I realized I’m getting resistant to changes.

Re: Aging programmer

#264

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

lawgimenez wrote: post #263
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, fair 'nuff. Right now, I'm working on a data parser for a backend API that fetches a JSON response, using the built-in NSURLSession stuff, turns it into a Swift Dictionary, then I sort through that Dictionary, and emit a bunch of Swift struct instances for use by the API consumer. The reason for this, is because the API that I wrote about seven years ago, is giving us performance problems. I wrote about that in t…

I currently started a basic iOS project with SwiftUI and it is just utterly painful to work with. I kinda hate mobile development because of this reactive roadmap shit. Why would anyone code a UI. I’m old now and I realized I’m getting resistant to changes.

I started off, writing device control stuff.

There's a lot of similarity between that, and UI work.

I trained as an artist, way back in the Paleozoic Era, and that gives me "airs" about things like graphic design, and data presentation. I've spent a good part of my career, unlearning that crap. I'm usually best off, leaving the defaults in place, if possible. I write about that here[0].

I think that UI needs to be treated as seriously as possible. It should not be an "also" thing. I think it needs to be the starting place for the work, and I tend to develop UI pretty quickly, in my work.

I feel like SwiftUI still needs a lot of fine-grit sandpaper. I have every confidence that it will get there, but I don't feel confident in committing any project at scale to it.

[0] https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/the-road-most-travel...

Re: Aging programmer

#265

Post by therealdrag0 »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #135

So this is the (current) opening paragraph for my book: ############ There is a common refrain in large companies, almost a badge of honour.:: "I used to write software, but then I became a manager and stopped. But I am still technical." How many of these managers used to read and write English (or Spanish or Japanese) , and how many, once they became managers, stopped? But are still literate? It is no longer possibl…

Tbh I don’t understand how that gap could be closed. It’s not like this is the first generation or career or field with managers and ICs; has it ever closed?

Re: Aging programmer

#266

Post by thread_id »

hota_mazi wrote: post #199
indymike wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OP was talking about managing, you are talking about leading. These are two very distinct skills. Everything I've experienced in my professional life has taught me this: managers who can't lead can't manage, and leaders who can't manage cannot lead. Never once have I worked for a manager who didn't see themselves as a leader, and never once have I met someone who called themselves a leader who wasn't management.

I've met all kinds. People who are stellar managers, have extremely high empathy and EQ, understand their engineers, prop them up, help their career, guide them toward both professional and personal growth. They also did not have a single ounce of leadership or charisma in them, very low technical chops, no vision, and not interested in providing team leadership. I've also met stellar leaders, visionaries, who inspir…

You have provided a wonderfully elegant description of the two ends of this spectrum. Spectrum is a perfect term to use becasue technical leaders who become managers exist on that spectrum in very dynamic ways. Everyone is surrounded by 360 degrees of team members who have different perspectives, expectations, needs, wants, etc. No one can be all things for all people at all times. For my own experience, depending on who you ask - my peers, my leaders, my reports, they will all have varying opinions of how I land on that spectrum and what it means to them. And if you ask this month and ask again next month their perspective may change both positively and negatively. You have to keep trying and growing and learning. You also have to be agile and flexible. Let go of the past and focus on the future. Assume best intentions about everyone. There is no perfect. Its all about the journey.

Re: Aging programmer

#267

Post by sureglymop »

mike_ivanov wrote: post #243
iepathos wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've interviewed people with computer science phd's from schools with good reputations that couldn't program worth a damn when it came to some simple algorithm and practical coding questions in person so, I don't have a lot of faith in certs/degrees for this.

These types can't usually think clearly under pressure. Besides, answering coding questions is very, very different from inventing those algorithms. It's a completely different way of thinking. That's why.

But does that mean they're bad programmers? I don't think so at all. As a young person, we grew up with the internet so we're conditioned to just know the "pointer" to the information and then have to google/search for it. Now I've learned all the algorithms and data structures at uni too and passed the exams but what remains are the names of them and roughly when they are needed. It may be unfortunate but that's what it is like to study nowadays. It's all about cramming everything into your head and passing. Distractions absolutely everywhere and anxiety that we won't live up to and have the lives our parents had.

Now i for one dislike leet code and coding challenge interviews. I think it's silly, plain and simple. What i would look for instead if i was an employer would be curiosity. Nothing is more important than insatiable curiosity. A curious employee will learn everything about your whole stack in the first week... just out of curiosity. And if they do hit a leet code like problem during day to day work you best believe their curiosity won't let them rest until they've solved it, be if with prior knowledge and experience or without.

Re: Aging programmer

#268

Post by nly »

tootie wrote: post #246
dijit wrote: post #2

Here’s something I think a lot of people don’t think on: 40 years old is mid-career. If you expect to retire at 60 (likely 65 these days) and you start working at 20: 40 is smack dab in the middle of your career. I think that notion gets lost when we talk about ageism in tech and then people talk about 40-somethings.

"likely 65 these days" I think with software jobs paying what they do, retiring at 50 would be pretty easy.

If you start your career strong in your early to mid 20s and plan for it for then... yes.

Not all software engineers are paid ludicrous money though, and even in places that they are paid well the cost of living can be atrocious.

Re: Aging programmer

#269

Post by [deleted] »

thread_id wrote: post #69

At 64 years I am still going strong. I consider myself blessed that I have landed a position that allows the to be the leader (I manage a small team) and still be hands on with everything: Architecture, desgin, coding, infrastructure, cloud engineering, DevOps engineer, DBA, the list goes on. It is a Goldilocks job. The technologies that we manage and master are miriad. We are a small company and my team owns the ent…

[deleted]

Re: Aging programmer

#270

Post by hindsightbias »

granshaw wrote: post #229
hindsightbias wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had an office mate whose dream was to retire to the tools desk at HD. While brutal, there is something to working later from a health perspectice. When I was young, retirees played tennis and golf but I dont see as much of that in my cohort.

Snide all you want about it, but the country club trend provided community and physical activity

That’s what I said.
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