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Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

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Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#261

Post by BiteCode_dev »

perlgeek wrote: post #166
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We really need the equivalent of jail time for companies. Clearly after a certain size, fines do not cut it. Jailing executives is too hard, so laws should exist that remove the company from a market for x years or something, like if they were in a cell.

I agree that we need better enforcement mechanisms, but I'm not sold on a "time out". What would that even mean? If you aren't allowed to participate in the Maps business for, let's say, 2 years, does that mean you cannot offer the app for download? Then everybody stays on the old version, and cannot install security updates. Or that you cannot offer it as a new install? Then people changing their phones are screwed.…

First, 2 years is too long, because the consequences are very heavy. But a 2 months of service interruptions of youtube, google doc and gmap wouldn't crash the world, but would be so painful people would find alternatives quickly and never rely just on one monopoly again.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#262

Post by gniv »

It's interesting how the two continents are keeping each other in check when it comes to major abuses. The EU fining big US tech and the US fining VW are the prominent examples. In each case the home country has big incentives to keep the status quo fully aware that it's bad for consumers.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#263

Post by BiteCode_dev »

everforward wrote: post #143
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the short run, yes. But on the long run, that would be more effective. Once the customers and workers have been burned once, they will be very hesitant to give their trust to the company again. Companies would then have to get their things in order quickly, and win back the trust. A very effective deterrent. Imagine Google being out of the EU market for 3 months. How many youtubers would try and publish their vide…

Google exiting the market for 3 months would have enormous economic impact, in a bad way. They're too integrated into the economy to "just" close them out of the economy for 3 months. The world could tolerate YouTube being gone for a while. What about Android though? Is the entire world supposed to replace their phone while Play Services are down, and Android isn't getting security updates? What about GCP? How many b…

You put everything read only, and you give a 2 years notice before applying the sentence.

What do you think inflation is ? Their externalities being taxed on the population. Since we have to pay no matter what, at least they should feel it too.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#264

Post by kube-system »

guelo wrote: post #202
gwerbret wrote: post #170

A summary of the original findings by the European Commission (1): "By decision of 18 July 2018, the Commission fined Google for having abused its dominant position by imposing anticompetitive contractual restrictions on manufacturers of mobile devices and on mobile network operators, in some cases since 1 January 2011. Three types of restriction were identified: 1. those contained in ‘distribution agreements’, requi…

The irony is that if Google had not licensed Android and only manufactured its own devices, like Apple does, it could restrict consumer options much more harshly without EU fines and restrictions.

Or they could have written their licensing agreements in a way that doesn’t violate antitrust law.

Apple has lots of partners, but Foxconn and Pegatron make phones for many companies.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#265

Post by Narishma »

DoughnutHole wrote: post #200
timmg wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and gives the US giants a free pass otherwise. Probably because I work in tech in the US, but that has not been my view. What was the fine that the EU put on VW for intentionally cheating on emissions standards? And how does that compare with the many fines Google has gotten?

Volkswagen has definitely been fined less than Google - they were fined about a billion. The difference is though that the EU wasn't really prepared for the Volkswagen fraud - there was no standing law setting enormous fines for companies engaged in an emissions fraud of that scale like there is for GDPR violations. Since the scandal they brought in legislation to prevent it in the future, including fines of up to €3…

Unless I'm missing something, this fine has nothing to do with the GDPR but with Google's anti-competitive behavior.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#266

Post by josefx »

pmontra wrote: post #157

Google's reaction. > We are disappointed that the Court did not annul the decision in full. Android has created more choice for everyone, not less, and supports thousands of successful businesses in Europe and around the world. s/Android/Windows/ and s/Europe/USA/ and it could be Microsoft at the end of the antitrust case in the 90s.

> Android has created more choice for everyone

Same way IE did back when Microsoft provided it for "free".

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#267

Post by 6510 »

tmoravec wrote: post #127
londons_explore wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What really matters is how many dollars did they take from european citizens and businesses, and how many tax and fine dollars did they return. Europe needs to make sure these tech giants get to keep just enough money that they don't pull out of europe entirely, but not much more. Big fines are a start, but a better approach is taxation, since that takes away the regulatory risk for the companies.

> Big fines are a start, but a better approach is taxation, since that takes away the regulatory risk for the companies. Companies should obey the laws first and foremost. I'm not sure there's a lot of regulatory risk either; Google certainly has enough lawyers to know that what they did was illegal.

There is no reason to think Google is not aware of EU laws.

One such law for example forbids fake reviews.

Google creates profiles for small businesses, invites everyone to anonymously say whatever they want about business and rate it.

Then they list advertisement from competitors next to it.

Their solution for the public shaming contest is that you should send more customers people to google to review your business and of course purchase adds.

The law says that if you want to do reviews of any kind you must be able to prove the review is from someone who purchased a product or service. The fines are in % of global revenue. Google could have some legal talking point if they allowed business to disable it.

We didn't know wont fly.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#268

Post by dahfizz »

ncmncm wrote: post #254
dahfizz wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What % of global revenue or profit do you think an appropriate fine is?

That is for courts, but it should be enough to produce correct behavior by eliminating incentive to violate. If the fine is too small, it becomes operating expense, as is usual in the US. Probably any fine should accompany (but not depend on results from) criminal charges for a company officer.

So you believe Google made more than $4B with their Android licensing practices in the EU?

I think that is unlikely, and I think it is likely we will see Google change the illegal licensing.

I am more than happy to see a Google exec get charged for a crime if you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they committed that crime.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#269

Post by warkdarrior »

moffkalast wrote: post #182
izacus wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way this EU ruling is setup, they want your Android not only ship with other stores, but allow sales with exclusively those stores as well. Just like the case with Chinese phones now - I have bunch of people in my family angry because they bought Huawei and they now can't use their banking apps because it's an incompatible build of Android that requires publishing in a Huawei AppStore to work. That's worse. That'…

> because it's an incompatible build of Android sigh I guess it's impossible to go 5 min without somebody wrecking the ecosystem. I don't understand how they can even manage to be incompatible, it's fucking Java, or more commonly these days just a wrapped PWA.

Requiring OEMs to be compatible with some Google-given (God-given?) Android version is a constraint on their business and their users. The point of EU's ruling is to allow incompatibilities to flourish. Let each user pick the best Android flavor they want.

Re: Google loses EU appeal and is fined a record $4B

#270

Post by mdiesel »

Semaphor wrote: post #216
woeh wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was pleased to see recently that a couple of different brands at my local DIY store had interoperable batteries. I bought a small lawnmower which now uses the same battery as a cordless drill from another brand. The brands that joined are listed on their marketing site[0]. Edit: One of the companies has a slightly less obnoxious website which also lists brands[1] [0] https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/#technol…

Oh cool, so there are two competing battery pack standards :D https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com

Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/927/
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