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Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

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Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#261

Post by WalterBright »

pydry wrote: post #206
Jensson wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem: Politicians are corrupt! Solution: Give more power to politicians! Lack of power corrupts, need to give them more until they stop being corrupt! Not sure why anyone thinks that would work.

Because politicians are accountable to voters and unless the monopolies are nationalized the monopolies are accountable to no one.

> politicians are accountable to voters

And then what happens to minority interests?

How about we have a national vote on what phone you get? Which car you get? Whether carrots or tomatoes get produced? What movies get produced? What clothes are produced? Which diseases get funding? What apartment you get? How many ounces of meat you get per week? What music you get to listen to?

What could go wrong with that?

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#262

Post by vehementi »

mattlondon wrote: post #234

As a UK tax payer, and as a UK tax payer that winces every time they see how much they lose to taxation in their P60 each year (six figures in tax), what are people's solutions to this? It seems like the NHS budget keeps on going up and up and up [1], as does the number of doctors and nurses (while "managers" has either declined or stayed relatively static) [2]. So NHS is getting more funding, and there are more doct…

> Yet there is still outcry about how we need MOAR MOAR MOAR!

Was the budget increased enough in the first place to what the experts recommended? "I generously give my employees a raise every, single, year, of 0.5%, and yet all I hear is that they want MOAR MOAR MOAR"

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#263

Post by mhh__ »

mattlondon wrote: post #234

As a UK tax payer, and as a UK tax payer that winces every time they see how much they lose to taxation in their P60 each year (six figures in tax), what are people's solutions to this? It seems like the NHS budget keeps on going up and up and up [1], as does the number of doctors and nurses (while "managers" has either declined or stayed relatively static) [2]. So NHS is getting more funding, and there are more doct…

Note that your bma source contains a graph titled "Regular healthcare expenditure if it had kept pace with the historical average over the last decade"

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#264

Post by nobody9999 »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #55
M2Ys4U wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This Twitter chap" is a journalist at the Financial Times and is a senior fellow at the London School of Economics. He's not just some rando bashing government...

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Authority I would trust a rando more than a journalist these days

You might want to check this out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Expertise

https://www.c-span.org/video/?426290-1/tom-nichols-discusses...

Unrelated, but the second link also provides the best definition of fake news I've ever heard.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#265

Post by Scoundreller »

mattlondon wrote: post #234

As a UK tax payer, and as a UK tax payer that winces every time they see how much they lose to taxation in their P60 each year (six figures in tax), what are people's solutions to this? It seems like the NHS budget keeps on going up and up and up [1], as does the number of doctors and nurses (while "managers" has either declined or stayed relatively static) [2]. So NHS is getting more funding, and there are more doct…

> how much more do people want?

I believe they voted for 350 million pounds a week to fund the NHS

https://leftfootforward.org/2022/02/where-is-the-350-million...

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#266

Post by londons_explore »

mattlondon wrote: post #234

As a UK tax payer, and as a UK tax payer that winces every time they see how much they lose to taxation in their P60 each year (six figures in tax), what are people's solutions to this? It seems like the NHS budget keeps on going up and up and up [1], as does the number of doctors and nurses (while "managers" has either declined or stayed relatively static) [2]. So NHS is getting more funding, and there are more doct…

Is it possible the NHS took on lots of 'bad deals' in the 2000's, and is now having to repay them? Things like a "Get this cheap building, but now you're locked into paying inflated rent and service charges on it every year for the next 50 years"

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#267

Post by lkramer »

Anecdotal, but I have twice in the last year heard from the same friend of 2 instances where the waiting time for an ambulance was around an hour.

The first was when he observed an accident where a car hit a guy on a scooter. The guy was hurt, but not in a life threatened manner.

The other was a guy in a bar who probably overdosed on something and his heart stopped. If someone hadn't been around who knew CPR, he would have been dead.

Both instances was in London.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#268

Post by owisd »

Ferrotin wrote: post #243
oliwarner wrote: post #116

This isn't a collapse of emergency healthcare, it's a very predicted collapse of community social care: hospitals can't discharge if they need a care home place that doesn't exist. Without inpatient bed availability, ERs and AMUs can't admit to specialties and everything gums up at the front door. Let's be clear: we do need many more doctors and nurses, but the existing ones can't do their jobs because their wards ha…

It’s almost as if centralized control of resources doesn’t allocate them optimally.

Seems to work better in this case, as essentially the only buyer of pharmaceuticals in the country the NHS are in a better position to negotiate deals in bulk than if hospitals had to negotiate individually. The UK has higher life expectancy than the USA for 2.5x less per capita healthcare spending.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#269

Post by pessimizer »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #236
dia80 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, The ambulances are waiting outside the hospitals with the last patient so they can't go to get the next one. Source: Family members have recently waited some hours outside A&E in an ambulance.

This is hard to believe. Just wheel the patient through the front door and let the hospital do the babysitting. There is no sense in using an ambulance as a waiting room.

The patients are waiting in the ambulance because the waiting room is full, but I see your point. Why not just tip the patient onto the pavement outside the waiting room? I'm sure a full hospital with a full waiting room won't be to busy to sort that out.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#270

Post by gambiting »

eikenberry wrote: post #190
dekhn wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the 12 hour wait is once the person enters the doors of the facility. In a hospital, if you walk into the ER, people are observing you closely and expediting people at immediate risk of death. A person who can sit in a chair for 12 hours waiting didn't have an emergency. Instead, they were using the ER for non-urgent care.

What is the situation of urgent care establishments in the UK? Places you can go for non life threatening but life stopping events, like say a broken leg?

It all goes through A&E, which unfortunately is meant for both the life threatening situations and urgent but not leathal ones yet. You have to go in, register and sit and wait - if it is "just" a broken leg yes you might wait a few hours before being seen.
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