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Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

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Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#261
I actually tried something similar to this on a small social networking service about 5 years ago. There was a requirement for people to interact with their groups via email by replying to other emails or by sending a message to an email address for the group.

For both of these, I made the case that we should require the incoming emails to pass either a domain aligned SPF or domain aligned DKIM check (essentially what DMARC would do).

Since most people are going to be using a 3rd party email service, this just works by default. If they aren't, we shouldn't have any issue with forcing this requirement as it meets absolute basic email standards.

The higher ups let me do it and we ended up creating an instructional email that would bounce back to failed messages with the reason why, an explanation that we couldn't risk someone being impersonated on the platform and a suggestion that they use the app or website to interact until the issue could be resolved.

In the short time that I was there after that feature launched, we never ran into a problem.

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thats a crazy level of risk assessment for an average user. It really isn't. Think about it for a second: how hard is it to spot phishing attempts when they are sent to an email address you know for a fact you're not using with a service? And how vulnerable are you to phishing if your special-purpose email address that you only use for one specific purpose receives zero spam? To claim that the most basic and easy i…

In 2022 nobody actually clicks links in emails, right?

You are right of course in one sense, but look at the comments here! If the HN crowd is still sending verification links rather than codes to be copy and pasted, that implies regular folks are still clicking the links..

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#264
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can solve this problem without a signup form. Just give the user two links: sign up and log in. Both ask for email address first. The next screen tells them to check their email. You can use unusual flows without confusing users as long as you give them cues about how to do what they're trying to do.

That doesn’t solve the issue of passwordless login, though, which is the fact not everyone has access to their email on every device at all times. Need to check something attached to a work email (hello Slack) but purposefully not got work email set up on your personal device? Good luck

> Need to check something attached to a work email (hello Slack) but purposefully not got work email set up on your personal device?

This isn't worse or different than SSO, which your work should be enforcing anyway.

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#265
post #245

Another way to authenticate email is to provide your email address and password. This has the advantage that you do not need to receive or send an email. There may be downsides as well, but I cannot think of any ;-)

Or use OpenID Connect.

That also has the problem of making your identity dependent on a third party, unless the site accepts Self-Issued identities, which is an interesting extension to OIDC:

https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-self-issued-v2-1_0.h...

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#266
This is quite wrong. The purpose of e-mail verification is to validate that the user creating the account controls the specified e-mail; that he or she can receive at that address.

This author has created a silly flow whereby the user proves that they are somehow able to use e-mail to reflect back some authorization cookie to the server. You can do that without even having an e-mail address; any Internet-connected host can send e-mail, using any sending identity it wishes. The fact that you can contact my server via HTTPS and via SMTP, and relay some information between the two, means absolutely fiddlesticks.

> The “reverse” flow should make intuitive sense: we’re proving that the user controls the specified email address by challenging them to send us an email from it.

Right; here is the core misconception on the part of the author: that receiving an e-mail from someone proves that they control a certain e-mail address. (Imagine the flow being used for password recovery, yikes! Anyone forging an e-mail from you gets your account?)

The second problem with this idea is that it increases the server complexity. Now it has to process e-mail. Conventional e-mail validation doesn't have to receive e-mail; all it does is send confirmation mails. Which, I repeat, any Internet-connected host can do; and it can do so without becoming a mail server.

A third problem is user experience. It complicates things for the user. The handling of mailto: URLs is tenuous. Not everyone has it set up correctly. Many users have some webmail account like Gmail, but when they click on some mailto: URL, some default application comes up that doesn't use their Gmail account. They don't use that application and are prompted to set up that application.

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#267
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or use OpenID Connect.

That also has the problem of making your identity dependent on a third party, unless the site accepts Self-Issued identities, which is an interesting extension to OIDC: https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-self-issued-v2-1_0.h...

[deleted]

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#268
post #242

Why do we even need email verification? I don't want to allow a website to link my identity to my email address or phone number. I don't want the website to push me messages. I am capable of storing passwords, so no need to send me password recovery emails. Email verification should be optional.

> I am capable of storing passwords, so no need to send me password recovery emails. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. As the website's operator, I don't want to manually have to go back-and-forth with everyone who forgets their password to try and verify their identity through their past activity etc. Making it optional for the people who won't forget is fine, there's no way to know who that will be though. And if yo…

> if your password manager fail you'll be here on HN pointing out how I made a website with not a single fallback mechanism to get back in your account.

That's why I said:

> Email verification should be optional.

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#269
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional spammers probably would know how to set up fake email addresses.

You underestimate the number of people who are bad and technically incompetent. Such basic things can stop a lot of idiots. I guess you still lock your house even if proffessioanal thieves can pick your locks. 99% of thieves are not proffessional.

> I guess you still lock your house even if proffessioanal thieves can pick your locks.

No. I'm hoping that lock-makers work with professionals who do pentesting on locks.

Re: Why don’t we do email verification in reverse?

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could consider setting up a separate email account just for the verification messages and have that on your phone.

Why should I have to go through all that faff when I have a perfectly good password manager?

Wasn’t suggesting that anyone should - just wanted to suggest a solution to the problem they described.
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