Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 283 posts

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#261

Post by ZeroGravitas »

missjellyfish wrote: post #260
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I quite like trains and multi modal transport generally. But if trucks are electric then it's not totally obvious to me that trains would win on cost or environmental factors despite the obvious advantage of tracks and direct electrification. They're already trialing overhead wires on some highways for electric trucks. Luckily we don't need to choose between them anyway.

> They're already trialing overhead wires on some highways for electric trucks. Yes, and it's a bad idea. The friction between tarmac and rubber is orders of magnitude worse than steel on steel. Electrification alone doesn't solve the problem.

Even with that advantage, I think trains will have to work to maintain the upper hand, here's some things they should be looking into:

https://www.oliverwyman.com/our-expertise/insights/2017/sep/...

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#262

Post by zeusk »

Kon-Peki wrote: post #66
zeusk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19800220 is it a 7 series or some Japanese SUV? Also, if you're as experienced as you claim; You'd probably BMW does not make any transmissions. They've forever outsourced that to ZF or Getrag.

…and General Motors. Up until the ZF 8-speed, pretty much all the good automatic transmissions in BMWs were built by GM.

zf6hp28 and getrag GS7 DCT were far better. GM was only better than the older 5 speed autos.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#263

Post by tdesilva »

arcticbull wrote: post #250
paganel wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honestly why stop there? ICE cars were a lot better than horse- and cow-driven carts (I should know about the latter, my entire childhood at my grandparents was spent in cow-driven carts on the way to the the hay-growing fields and back, think this [1]), while I don't see EVs better than ICE cars. Yes, on some technical parameters they are better, as you mention, but on many others they are not: the charging times…

> ... the charging times will never come down to reasonable times unless we discover some new laws of physics... Supercapacitor development continues apace, but even without, a wall connector gets you 40 miles per hour charged, and a supercharger gets you 200 miles per hour charged. So my question is, just how far are you going? If it's really far, consider a bus, train or plane. > ... which in turn causes people lik…

> > ... which in turn causes people like me, who live in apartment blocks, to not be able to have a EV (I'm not going to spend half an hour and more every few days at an electrical charging station)

> You spend a half hour or more every few days at a gas station bud. Set a timer next time you go. Also, charge it at home?

Who spends 30 minutes at the pump? The actual act of filling the car takes less than 5 minutes. Even if you include wait times it's still less than 30 minutes in a busy, car centric city (and then you need to account for the fact that EVs also have to wait to charge).

The comment you replied to explicitly stated they live in an apartment, so at home charging isn't an option.

I would only consider an EV if I had a SFH. Even if the building I live in adds a few charging stations, it's not worth the hassle to go fully electric.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#264

Post by arcticbull »

tdesilva wrote: post #263
arcticbull wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... the charging times will never come down to reasonable times unless we discover some new laws of physics... Supercapacitor development continues apace, but even without, a wall connector gets you 40 miles per hour charged, and a supercharger gets you 200 miles per hour charged. So my question is, just how far are you going? If it's really far, consider a bus, train or plane. > ... which in turn causes people lik…

> > ... which in turn causes people like me, who live in apartment blocks, to not be able to have a EV (I'm not going to spend half an hour and more every few days at an electrical charging station) > You spend a half hour or more every few days at a gas station bud. Set a timer next time you go. Also, charge it at home? Who spends 30 minutes at the pump? The actual act of filling the car takes less than 5 minutes. E…

> The comment you replied to explicitly stated they live in an apartment, so at home charging isn't an option.

Why do you say that? Many apartment blocks have chargers, and in some places they're mandatory or going to be mandatory soon.

> Even if the building I live in adds a few charging stations, it's not worth the hassle to go fully electric.

What do you mean specifically?

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#265

Post by dachryn »

codeulike wrote: post #243
rsynnott wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> look back at VWs claims about how they were going to be an EV leader back in 2013, vs how long it took them to actually get the ID3/ID4 done. VW was third in Europe by 2018 (or second, depending on how you view Renault-Nissan), and first by 2020, so... not _that_ huge of a miss, perhaps? The ID3/4 were their second generation; the eGolf and eUp, while far less ambitious, sold pretty well.

Fair enough. Yes by 2020 VW had sorted themselves out. My point really is that the traditional manufacturers wasted a lot of time faffing about. Lots of glossy promises about the future and not many actual EV cars being made. Possibly internal power struggles. I'm glad things are happening now. e.g. BMW had the i3 in 2013 which was good for its time, then closed the whole program down and didn't come up with anything…

BMW focused first on hybrid approaches. Saying they abandoned electric is a bit weird.

(they are one of the only german brands that offer literally every model in a hybrid version, with decent battery packs. I can commute full electric with my hybrid if I charge at work. I drive about 80% full electric. Really only use the engine in the weekend and when using sport mode)

Audi focused on hydrogen and full electric. Hydrogen wasn't the success they hoped it to be. Their gamble for CNG cars also didn't pay off. But at least hydrogen powered cars had electric motors, which is why Audi managed be have the e-tron already in 2018. That is a brilliant car, beats a Tesla in daily use imho, if only it had 100 miles extra range (it has about 200-250). And now they are just limited by chip shortages and battery production for a full electric rollout, same for BMW. The lead times on the i4, iX3 etc.. are ridiculous, 14 to 18 months. So why bother brining out newer models? That's why they stick to hybrid. You can make about 7 hybrids with the scarce resources to produce one full electric.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#266

Post by alliao »

ohgodplsno wrote: post #126
alliao wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was driving along E80 from Nice to Genoa once, in a fairly standard diesel stick Audi A4 rental. I drove fairly normally at start, but then many cars kept passing me and in a typical Italian fashion with plenty of directional signals. There was no consistency, sometimes they would indicate right seemingly to suggest they want to pass, sometimes they indicate left seemingly suggesting the other car to move aside, bu…

To be fair, italian highways are a terrifying zone of lawlessness and dangerous drivers, Ferraris or not. -- A traumatized french driver

lol some time later a local Italian told me there're no police no speed camera on Italian highways, I didn't know what to believe to be honest, any Italians around? hah

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#267

Post by tdesilva »

arcticbull wrote: post #264
tdesilva wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > ... which in turn causes people like me, who live in apartment blocks, to not be able to have a EV (I'm not going to spend half an hour and more every few days at an electrical charging station) > You spend a half hour or more every few days at a gas station bud. Set a timer next time you go. Also, charge it at home? Who spends 30 minutes at the pump? The actual act of filling the car takes less than 5 minutes. E…

> The comment you replied to explicitly stated they live in an apartment, so at home charging isn't an option. Why do you say that? Many apartment blocks have chargers, and in some places they're mandatory or going to be mandatory soon. > Even if the building I live in adds a few charging stations, it's not worth the hassle to go fully electric. What do you mean specifically?

Unless each parking stall will have an EV charger, you will have to share with others. That means plugging your car in (when it's not occupied) and remembering to go back down, unplug, and repark your car in another spot. When the charger is occupied, you'll have to wait until it's available. My condo does not have a charger and AFAIK there's no plan to add one any time soon.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#268

Post by _carbyau_ »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #217
_carbyau_ wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not as hardcore as throwawaylinux about it but I can understand the idea of: - why am I voluntarily restricting what I can do so that others can have more leeway to do whatever they want? For my part, I ride a motorbike. I enjoy it, it uses less fuel, running costs etc than most cars. But I am not going to give it up while my neighbour's family in their multimillion dollar mansion drives 3x 2 ton+ SUVs around. A work…

> why am I voluntarily restricting what I can do so that others can have more leeway to do whatever they want? Because you refuse to vote for systemic change that would affect everyone positively?

:-) Mate, you have zero idea how I vote. Maybe I am similarly frustrated like you.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#269

Post by AtlasBarfed »

dncornholio wrote: post #180
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plaid's times around the Nurb show that when weight gets solved with solid state batteries, which is what all the high end cars will use, ICE won't be competitive. And while it's been a bit like fusion power, always a couple years away, enough is happening in solid state that it's probably happening in a couple years. Now, it might now be competitive in the mass market, where I believe sodium ion and LFP/LMFP/etc che…

You mean, plaid has terrible Nordsleife performance? Overheating, super bad brakes and they run out of charge after 1 lap. Also, the lap-record of the plaid is not impressive at all compared to ICE. The plaid lap-time was not on a standard car. They had ceramic brakes which you cannot order from Tesla. There were probably more modifications done on the car. Also, a part from the weight, the range of EV vehicles serio…

"Plaid's Nurb lap only showed how far behind these cars really are still. "

It basically has the all-drivetrain production sedan. Oh sure... Tesla doesn't offer 50 racing trims like Porsche and BMW. Whatever. Tesla did some afterthought track kit and broke the record. But... sure, go ahead and pretend it doesn't. I loved how Jalopnik commenters collectively shit their pants and called false news like they are used to from watching OAN. Good to see its still alive.

You think tesla has teams of engineers devoted to cranking out racing versions of Plaid? Yeah, uh, no. That's what makes their Nurb time even funnier. It was probably a couple weekends of air kit testing and a cage retrofit.

You'd have a better argument talking about how the IDR is 45 seconds off of the LMP derivative. But I think you know in the back of your head when about 10 years of forthcoming battery and motor tech gets developed... that isn't standing.

Motorheads can talk about 1000HP engines and top speeds they never hit, it doesn't matter. 0-60 is owned by EVs. Quarter miles are a wash. Endurance racing? Battery swaps. Wireless charging built into the track. Who cares.

Racing will need to make a decision: have all racing be like NASCAR with carburetors in the year 2010, or be at the forefront of transportation evolution and development. F1 and LMP is already behind with hybrids, those were introduced in 1997 with the Prius.

Re: Mercedes and Ferrari’s edge in the electric car age: high-end axial motors

#270

Post by 2143 »

chakintosh wrote: post #196
rsynnott wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a general rule, if Tesla isn't doing it already I suspect it's either not economically feasible, difficult to manufacture, or otherwise has drawbacks they've judged signifigant. This company really has made Jobs' reality distortion field pale in comparison. Without comment on the specific innovation in the article, it's a _very_ weird assumption that all innovation in a field would stem from one company. That's…

Yeah I cringed reading that line. Koenigsegg (yes, the hyper car company) made a motor the size of a briefcase that can output 355HP and weighs 30Kg. This is one random example of a company with not much experience in EVs (their Hybrid cars' motors and batteries are made by Rimac) improving on what Tesla is already doing.

100% agree.

Both companies are interesting in their own way, but they aren't exactly comparable in my opinion.

Trivia: Christian von Koenigsegg's daily driver is a Tesla Model S :) [1]

[1] https://www.wheels.ca/news/christian-von-koenigsegg-drives-a...

Post reply on HN