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In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

news.yale.edu

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Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#261

Post by TameAntelope »

al_mandi wrote: post #244
TameAntelope wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Law of large numbers. Plus, getting into medical school is not sufficient. A surgeon cannot fake his track record and experience after residency and working.

> A surgeon cannot fake his track record and experience after residency and working.

Fake? No. Fudge? Yes, easily. Besides, you can be competent and still substantially worse than a gifted surgeon would have been had they been given an actual "equal" opportunity like the comment I replied to claimed to care about.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#262

Post by mbg721 »

tomrod wrote: post #246
mbg721 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RvW wouldn't have been established except as a political goal. 1973 wasn't Eden before Original Sin.

This point isn't really relevant to the identification of a "runaway Supreme court" overthrowing precedence with politically outcome-motivated reasoning.

It is if we only blow the "Foul!!!" whistle just after we get the precedent that we want, how we got there be damned.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#263

Post by upsidesinclude »

hintymad wrote: post #256
eloff wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the danger of focusing on equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. In my opinion, the former is not possible anyway, it's not a good goal. People are different and they're going to have different outcomes, even if only considering chance. But they should have the same opportunities regardless of race, gender, etc. Making policy to address this is tackling the root of the problem instead of the…

> This is the danger of focusing on equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. In my opinion, the former is not possible anyway, For this statement alone the left can label you as far right. In the past 10 years or so, I repeatedly hear a consistent message: we fight for equal outcome. And of course, identity is a critical factor, if not the only factor, in this fight. I'm actually very curious how the A…

It's just reconcile.

Reconciliate is a post construction of 'reconciliation'

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#264

Post by inkblotuniverse »

TameAntelope wrote: post #259
inkblotuniverse wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word 'racist' is overloaded and refers to multiple different things. 'One race is superior to another' is a racist belief. Discriminating based on race is a racist action.

Fixing an inequity is not racist, the racism is the creation of the inequity. This is like saying it's unfair to help someone with a broken leg because it takes time away from people with other injuries. The problem is that someone broke the person's leg, not that their leg needs attention from a doctor.

They're both racist! What you're doing is breaking the leg of some other guy who looks like the original leg-breaker to "make everything even". There were two problems, originally: someone was going around breaking legs, and someone had a broken leg. Now you're cheering on the next leg-breaker, and there's more broken legs in the world.

Your justification for being racist doesn't prevent your actions from being racist.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#265

Post by hintymad »

upsidesinclude wrote: post #263
hintymad wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the danger of focusing on equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. In my opinion, the former is not possible anyway, For this statement alone the left can label you as far right. In the past 10 years or so, I repeatedly hear a consistent message: we fight for equal outcome. And of course, identity is a critical factor, if not the only factor, in this fight. I'm actually very curious how the A…

It's just reconcile. Reconciliate is a post construction of 'reconciliation'

thanks! updated.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#266

Post by shkkmo »

belorn wrote: post #219
shkkmo wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its analogous to if you were an American slave in 1800s, got your freedom and sailed to the UK. And on landing saw blacks in the UK wearing chains as a fashion accessory. It seems so disrespectful towards your struggle. I would point out that chains are indeed a popular fashion accessory. I think that telling people what to wear removes power from them. It isn't contradictory to believe that telling people that the…

> I think that telling people what to wear removes power from them. Indeed, it does remove power from them. It is also something which every country, every culture, and every religion has in common. They all put in rules about what people are allowed and not allowed to wear. The support for those are also quite high when people are forced to think about them, but since they are such an omnipresence, it like talking t…

The ubiquity and normalization of dress codes doesn't mean that they are fair or just. There is both a long history and plenty of contemporary controversy over very unfair dress codes.

When a more powerful group imposes a dress code on a less powerful group, it absolutely behooves us to second guess ourselves.

> people should have an inalienable-right to decide from themselves what to wear

It seems pretty evident that dress and style is a form of self expression is is thus part of our right to free speech, and sometimes also protected by freedom of religion.

Both of those "inalienable rights" are subject to abrogation in specific contexts and so is the right to dress how you like, but that doesn't mean it isn't a fundamental human right.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#267

Post by [deleted] »

rjbwork wrote: post #130
news_to_me wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's possible to have meaningful diversity of thought without diversity of background. That spans many attributes—race, economic status, where you grew up, etc. Race is obviously an important one, given how much it changes many people's experiences and perceptions. I think diverse racial representation is important, but is maybe better viewed as an indicator of success rather than a metric to optimize.…

I think I tend to agree. The place to put the thumb on the scales is pre-k-12, especially early on. If we look at purely merit metrics at the bottom of the funnel at university, then based on the approach these universities are taking, Asians will have the best merit metrics, and Blacks the worst. I fail to see how this could possibly promote a good social outcome. People are going to notice and stereotyping is going…

[deleted]

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#268

Post by s1artibartfast »

quantumwannabe wrote: post #185
samatman wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not Asians primarily. They are discriminated against more stiffly, but are far outnumbered in the US by Whites, who also get the thumb placed on the wrong pan of the scale. The focus on Asians is because of a doctrine that discriminating against Whites is very good and correct, because they deserve it.

Because schools withhold a large percentage of their spots for "legacy students", a White kid who isn't rich or well-connected is less likely to get into these elite schools than an Asian kid with the same grades. Half of the White students at Harvard are legacy students [1] and White students make up 44% of the Harvard student body. 50.9% of Gen Z is White [2], meaning that slightly less than 51% of the population i…

Of the 44% white students, about 20% are ethnically Jewish. [1] Jewish people make up about 2% of the population, leaving even fewer slots, if you take that view.

However, nobody is entitled to a slot in a private university.

Public schools should optimize for equality of opportunity, but private schools should be free to use other measures as long as they dont go against civil rights act. This includes maximizing profit or legacy students.

https://www.chicagojewishnews.com/how-many-jewish-students-a...

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#269

Post by baumy »

TameAntelope wrote: post #182
notch656a wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People want different treatment as a result of their different values and life experiences that they gather from their cultures Yes exactly. A white kid adopted by someone in a village in Kenya isn't going to want to be treated like an Englishman, and a black kid who grew up his whole life in a Montana country town full of white people with white parents (probably) doesn't want to be treated differently than the res…

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