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Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

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Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish r/kroger and r/antiwork would intersect more, it's so sad to see the experiences people post in the former

r/antiwork is propaganda and true-believers amplifying that propaganda. r/Kroger and r/Walmart are real people just trying to deal with life as best they can.

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Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If ALU gets over 50% of employees to sign the card, they can bypass a vote and declare themselves the union and petition for recognition of such to the NLRB (which will grant it unless Amazon can demonstrate malfeasance somehow). It’s a common tactic by unions and a common response by employers is to carefully but thoroughly explain this tactic to employees—-which they’re allowed to do, but it’s totally illegal to sa…

Yeah, if they can get 50% of employees on legal record saying they support the union, it is obvious that they don't need an election. Your language, IMO, is value-laden. Card-signing is a common "tactic" for unions like the presidential election is a "tactic" for deciding the next president.

Election votes are anonymous by nature. Card signing is not.

I'm not opposed to unionizing but I take issue with the idea that getting 50% support means "it is obvious that they don't need an election."

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That analogy is poor because we don’t know of a good alternative to democratic governments. But there is an obvious alternative to unions that many workers do prefer.

And they can still choose it, since unions are not compulsory as far as I know? So what are we discussing about?

They can choose it by quitting only, as the work changes before and after the union. So instead of having the unhappy people quit when they perceive the company as not being good enough for them, the unhappy people create a union and make the happy people quit instead. It's fine either way by me but it feels a bit pointless.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#264
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This will go down on your permanent record..." -- Bezos in helium voice I remember quitting from Krogers bagging groceries when I was a kid. I forget why, but I did give less than 2 weeks notice. Mr. Manager gravely conveyed that if I did this, I'd be barred from working for them again forever. Pretty sure my poker face then was not what it is now, but in any case I did not find that to be anywhere nearly as distres…

that lifetime ban on working for the Krogers may have represented a much bigger threat to Mr. Manager than it ever would to you

pmc and workers aren't allies

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish r/kroger and r/antiwork would intersect more, it's so sad to see the experiences people post in the former

r/antiwork is propaganda and true-believers amplifying that propaganda. r/Kroger and r/Walmart are real people just trying to deal with life as best they can.

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Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the USA is going to allow manufacturers to outsource the majority of well-paid (~$30/hr avg) manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China What? You think overseas manufacturers are paying $30 an hour? It wasn't high-skilled manufacturing that was outsourced. Welders and machinists still have near zero unemployment and make about as much as a software engineer. It was low skilled manufacturing jobs that were outsourced…

High-skilled manufacturing was absolutely outsourced outside of the US. > Those jobs never paid anywhere close to $30/hour even in the heyday of unionized American manufacturing. Auto factory jobs (which were outsourced) certainly paid that much and more in inflation adjusted dollars. From a book studying the auto industry describing average wages in Detroit, > At $11.62 an hour in 1982 wages, Detroit's autoworkers,…

> Auto factory jobs (which were outsourced)

The decline of Detroit UAW auto industry definitely weren't outsourced. It certainly wasn't GM that opened car factories in Japan and Germany. And it certainly wasn't GM shareholders or executives that benefited from the rise of Japanese and German imports.

This isn't outsourcing, this is simply a case of American carmakers being outcompeted by better products from Japanese and European competitors. (A significant fraction of which were actually assembled in US-based plants owned by those overseas competitors.)

This has nothing to do with "mobility of capital", and unless you shut down trade completely, there's nothing in the world that can protect poorly managed American companies from foreign competition. (Nor should you, while one million UAW workers saw their pay decline, 300 million Americans benefited from a vast improvement in car reliability, affordability and safety.)

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#267
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression the dollar amount didn't change. Instead, the existence of the market did. (None of the other parents we know have been able to find babysitters either.) Presumably, it'll even out after the labor shortages subside.

Are we talking about nannies or a sitter for a random single night? Are there no teenagers in the neighborhood who want an “easy” 4 hours work? That’s what we did with my son (late 90s). Same as my parents did with me and my sister (early 80s).

If he's in SF.. probably not, actually.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Metro NY and upstate regions, there is a supermarket chain called Shoprite that is unionized. Where I live, none of the other chains are union shops. The only visible difference as a consumer is there are less (or no) automated checkout lanes. Prices are no different than anywhere else.

> The only visible difference as a consumer is there are less (or no) automated checkout lanes. ...Really? That's a straight detriment in my book, as a customer. I would generally prefer to support a union shop, but I'm extremely fond of self-checkout—and, in fact, further upstate, Wegman's has introduced a self-scan app that you can use to tally up your total as you shop, and just scan a code at the self-checkout re…

Does Wegman's pay you for providing them free labor?

You're subsidizing them at your own cost with self-checkout. After all, you are:

-Updating their inventory tracking system -engaging with the regulatory framework of purchasing on their behalf -being subject to their annoying "loss prevention hot days" where they turn the merchandise scales on.

I've started to take a different view toward these jobs over time. Being an employer is a high bar in the U.S., and if we (the taxpayers proxied through the markets/Federal Reserve) have an objective to have people participating in the workforce, then these "automated" checkouts cost workforce participation.

Which also means fewer training opportunities for low skill workers, fewer jobs of last resort, etc. Not everything is necessarily $$$.

Be a hell of an economics project to really suss out the difference in flow of money in grocers who took different approaches.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#269
post #247
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additional context: it wasn’t until 2015 that Walmart raised its minimum wage from the federal minimum to $9/hr. It’s now $12.

The federal minimum is not really something that should be taken as a point of reference (from the employees side). A better metric: "How much do jobs pay that are easily available to me?" (And so in this sense, the wages of Wallmart and Amazon seem to be very much relevant for many.) Another metric: "How long does it take to earn enough for my baseline expenses (rent, food, health, retirement money, etc.)".

>Another metric: "How long does it take to earn enough for my baseline expenses (rent, food, health, retirement money, etc.)".

In my opinion, this is the only valid metric.

If a business cannot pay people enough to live, the business should not exist. Businesses do not have more of a right to exist than the workers that make them up. Full stop.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#270

How do legislators just allow this? Isn't this cut and dry illegal?

The NLRB[1] is supposed to handle it. I have no idea how they would rule on forcing anti-union propaganda on employees today.

And today's SCOTUS seems to want to defang all government agencies' ability to rule on or enforce . . . anything, really, based on their rulings on the EPA and the SEC. Well, unless it's the government trying to enforce on reservation land - that is newly allowed.

[1] https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-right...

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