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700M users and Premium

telegram.org

261–270 of 330 posts

Re: 700M users and Premium

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Say what you want about their security; they have the absolute best UX of any (primarily 1-on-1) messaging app, bar none. That is precisely because they don't give a shit about security. While others like Whatsapp bother with e2ee and resulting device sync problems and inability to do server-side search, Telegram just stores everything on a server without (meaningful) encryption and boldly claims that 'it is the mo…

There’s probably a lesson to be learned here. People care about these features. Tell you what: I care about these features! And I also care about e2ee but I care more about all the things I can’t do with e2ee enabled. When it matters, I enable secret chats. In the early weeks of the war I used secret chats a ton to organise things (and I echo your observation that most people don’t know about them). But it doesn’t ma…

I care more that my intimate chats and pictures aren't stored plaintext in corporate and government servers for them to do god knows what than I care about some (cue soyjak face) heckin' stickerinos. But to each his own.

Re: 700M users and Premium

#262

Telegram blows my mind. Say what you want about their security; they have the absolute best UX of any (primarily 1-on-1) messaging app, bar none. Discord is a close second. But the quality and polish of telegram blows me away to this day. And it’s lots of small features and details such as built in translation for messages in a foreign language, all the smooth animations, quick look and summaries of channels with agg…

>And it’s lots of small features and details such as built in translation for messages in a foreign language

Is "automatically sends your message text to google" supposed to be a plus?

Re: 700M users and Premium

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You must have missed all the very suspicious information about Durov's close ties with Russian authorities That's rather fine in the event you don't want the Five Eyes to spy on you and you don't care if Putin reads your messages when he eats his breakfast.

agree. messenger privacy is not a function of technology unfortunately. the only real choice is which powerblock (us,ru,ch) can read your conversation

That's a defeatist attitude. Use Signal and you're protected from sub-Pegasus attacks.

Re: 700M users and Premium

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Majority of people I talk to are Messenger, LINE, and Telegram. So I only have a few people on Facebook. The Business accounts 100% cause me to get advertising on facebook. For example last week the butcher I used to purchase from in Singapore messaged me from his business account advertising arrival of new meat. Boom I get advertising for meat products in Singapore and Taiwan. The issue is, I have only 3 chats happe…

Business account chat logs are read by Facebook because the chats are sent via other means than WhatsApp. I don’t believe you can verify identity on business accounts either anyway so that’s moot. As for your other examples, as I said, it’s all very circumstantial and coincidental. Not evidence. Your accusation is more serious than you think, and serious accusations need serious evidence.

I have absolutely no problem accusing Facebook. It's not like they will try to prove me wrong or anything. We only assume that WA is using e2ee, but the reality is they have told us. Never proven it.

Re: 700M users and Premium

#265

Telegram blows my mind. Say what you want about their security; they have the absolute best UX of any (primarily 1-on-1) messaging app, bar none. Discord is a close second. But the quality and polish of telegram blows me away to this day. And it’s lots of small features and details such as built in translation for messages in a foreign language, all the smooth animations, quick look and summaries of channels with agg…

> Say what you want about their security; they have the absolute best UX of any (primarily 1-on-1) messaging app, bar none. That is precisely because they don't give a shit about security. While others like Whatsapp bother with e2ee and resulting device sync problems and inability to do server-side search, Telegram just stores everything on a server without (meaningful) encryption and boldly claims that 'it is the mo…

While it may not be the most secure, for many casual users the level of encryption provided in cloud chats is good enough for the convenience of smooth cloud sync, which generally doesn't work with E2E messengers and I frequently lose messages when I restore my phone or get a new one. At least they say the encryption keys for cloud chats are scattered across multiple jurdistictions so they wouldn't be able to hand over anything (other than public chats) unless someone got a court order in bunch of different countries at the same time. I would definitely trust them more than WhatsApp even though the latter uses the Signal protocol, but I don't trust Meta to not collect metadata or possibly have other backdoors as well.

Re: 700M users and Premium

#266
post #36

Quoted post unavailable.

Better a GRU-managed honey pot than a CIA-managed honey pot. My country is a vassal to the US, not the Russians, and GRU power over me is considerably less threatening.

There's no imaginable way that that's better, unless you're engaging in actual treason.

Re: 700M users and Premium

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Say what you want about their security; they have the absolute best UX of any (primarily 1-on-1) messaging app, bar none. That is precisely because they don't give a shit about security. While others like Whatsapp bother with e2ee and resulting device sync problems and inability to do server-side search, Telegram just stores everything on a server without (meaningful) encryption and boldly claims that 'it is the mo…

>...and yes, nobody of them used Secret chats... Pretty much no one does any sort of identity verification anyway on any E2EE messaging system. So that means that the people running the servers can MITM if they feel like it to get the content. So in practice Telegram might be the best of something or another for all it matters. It's sort of a con. Yes our E2EE encryption app is perfectly secure assuming you do this t…

> Pretty much no one does any sort of identity verification anyway on any E2EE messaging system.

Even my tech-illiterate mother asked if I was hacked or just got a new phone (I got a new phone). The study you link is from 2018, I think it's not a bad assumption to say that people have had some education since then. In 2018 I just started using Signal, nowadays everybody is on it, in my various circles.

Re: 700M users and Premium

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s probably a lesson to be learned here. People care about these features. Tell you what: I care about these features! And I also care about e2ee but I care more about all the things I can’t do with e2ee enabled. When it matters, I enable secret chats. In the early weeks of the war I used secret chats a ton to organise things (and I echo your observation that most people don’t know about them). But it doesn’t ma…

I can't use secret chats because they're only available on mobile, possibly macOS (and Unigram if you use Windows 10), not Windows or Linux, and I like accessing my chats across devices and typing on a physical keyboard.

There's now a desktop application for Whatsapp (at least on Windows). It claims to support ee2e, and the sync is instant.

Re: 700M users and Premium

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Say what you want about their security; they have the absolute best UX of any (primarily 1-on-1) messaging app, bar none. That is precisely because they don't give a shit about security. While others like Whatsapp bother with e2ee and resulting device sync problems and inability to do server-side search, Telegram just stores everything on a server without (meaningful) encryption and boldly claims that 'it is the mo…

>...and yes, nobody of them used Secret chats... Pretty much no one does any sort of identity verification anyway on any E2EE messaging system. So that means that the people running the servers can MITM if they feel like it to get the content. So in practice Telegram might be the best of something or another for all it matters. It's sort of a con. Yes our E2EE encryption app is perfectly secure assuming you do this t…

The problem is that these messengers don't encourage it. People are more likely to do verification if the app has an inbuilt process giving visual incentives for verification, see Element and Threema.

Re: 700M users and Premium

#270
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must have missed all the very suspicious information about Durov's close ties with Russian authorities, and that Telegram developers worked from the same office with VK in Saint-Petersburg when he claimed that they are in Germany. [1] Good choice for a dissident! (No) [1]: https://medium.com/@anton.rozenberg/friendship-betrayal-clai...

I quickly skimmed through the article (it's pretty long) and its main gist is that the author had a conflict with Pavel Durov's brother about his girlfriend, can you elaborate why you think Durov has ties to authorities? I don't see why working in St.Petersburg makes you a Putin ally.

Only two things matters in the security communication business: is the security verifiable, and the reputation of the service provider.

Of these two, Telegram is hardly verifiable: its clients are open-source, BUT the sources in the public repository are updated very rarely, so if T. wants to slip in some malicious code aimed at a specific user to compromise their Secret messages, they can very well do it in a number of ways.

But, given that the vast majority of Telegram users do not even user the secret chats, they can just accest all their chat history without any efforts. Since you can log in to your chat history with just a login and password, the even if chat history is indeed encrypted 'in storage', it is clear that Telegram can decrypt your messages for you. Consequently, they can decrypt it for themselves or for anyone else. (I personally think that they don't even bother, what's the point of doing extra work if nobody sees that anyway?)

Thus, the only thing that users can rely on is Durov's reputation, as a fearless modest person with few material possessions, who was pressured by Russian government to sell his business to Putin's cronies. And here is the problem:

Rosenberg in his series of posts alleges a lot of things. First, that Durov has quite a few material possessions, of which he lied (not a big deal in itself, but it adds up). Then, Durov has lied that once he launched Telegram, T's developers were located in Germany. But they turned out to be working from the same office as his old business, which was taken from him in a rather hostile way. These allegations were never addressed by Durov, the only comment he made was the attack on Anton's personality ('This man is a jerk', basically), and Rosenberg has even won his case in court, proving that his claims for payments, etc were solid and he really did work for Telegram in Russia. Do you have a feeling that Durov's reputation is kinda besmirched by now?

Then, this famous case when Russian censorship agency, Roscomnadzor, has tried to ban it in Russia, and couldn't. For some reason, the most obvious thing you do when banning an app was not done: Telegram had remained on Google Play and Apple's AppStore. We know that Google and Apple have previously complied with Russian government requests to ban apps (as proven in the case of Linkedin), but with Telegram it wasn't done - and all sources claiming that Roscomnadzor has demanded the ban were sourced to Roscomnadzor's own post (I have personally verified about 40 news articles, they all linked either each other or RCN's post) - and it is unclear if this demand was ever officially sent to Google/Apple, neither of them have ever confirmed or denied it. (btw if somebody has a congressman or district attorney pal, it would be good to send an official inquiry to Google and Apple to put this question to rest! Anyone?)

And then we have the 'unban' of Telegram by Russian authorities. This is in itself is unprecedented, for a russian government agency to back down from earlier demands 'because they were unable to make it stick'. Nothing like this has never ever happened, russian government officials just don't function like that, under no circumstances! And the week after the ban, Telegram's top manager sat on the same board with russian government officials! This alone makes me think that all this 'telegram's ban' was a successful special PR operation to build up Telegram's reputation, at the expense of Roscomnadzor reputation, which is below the lowest anyway.

So we have questionable reputation by Durov whom we know to lie about vital things, and we have very suspicious block-unblock story, and nobody really knows anything about Telegram the company and where it is incorporated, etc.

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