Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

theverge.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 320 posts

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#261

Post by jMyles »

Teever wrote: post #251
jMyles wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think a think of the children rhetoric is justified by the data. I'm not a proponent of "think of the children", but I also think that urban areas in the United States are largely designed in ways that put them at substantial risk of traffic fatalities. And I think that your data don't paint the rosy picture you seem to be using them for. > Only 18% of pedestrian deaths occur at intersections, You can also…

What solutions can you propose to the issues that you've raised?

Take your pick among credible urban planning organizations whose suggestions are more fleshed out than mine, but I'm happy to suggest some of the greatest hits:

    * Stop widening roads
    * Curb extensions
    * Circles
    * Diverters
    * Humps
    * Leave more roads unimproved
    * Prohibit cars from city centers entirely, as is often the case in European cities

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#263

Post by eternityforest »

I still don't understand why this is a hard problem. You can make radars and lidars cheap. You can confirm radar findings with an ultrasound.

If the global priority was safety at all costs, a lot of this stuff could probably be solved with deterministic algorithms, and some mandatory changes to manual cars(Like an unsafe distance warning radar).

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#264

Post by VirusNewbie »

kitsune_ wrote: post #218
bink wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds dangerous enough that I'd reconsider even driving the vehicle. I have a 2019 model 3 and I've experienced phantom braking twice. Both times I was on the highway with autopilot enabled and was passing a truck that cast a shadow over my lane. After the first experience I refused to even use autopilot for months afterwards. Just recently I was driving in the right lane of a suburban road (with no assisted dr…

It boggles my mind that people would continue to use a car that randomly breaks without their input.

I have a 2019 and I've used autopilot extensively and i've never had it break when it shouldn't. I've had it beep at me erroneously maybe twice, so I think this is something in the settings that is causing the issue.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#265

Post by VirusNewbie »

zozin wrote: post #166
bruce343434 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It infrequently phantom brakes >more often brakes hard and late >people think I'm brake-checking them >if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable >I've been sandwiched between an 18-wheeler and the gutter >once you learn the quirks it is extremely predictable and robust You're taking it better than I would be

It's just standard Tesla fanboy cope. The bottom line is that Tesla is shipping out alpha/beta software to the masses and relying on the masses to absorb the risks of crashing, causing accidents, dying, etc. in order for Tesla to iterate and possibly improve its software. I own an 2022 Model 3 Performance, so I'm not just talking out of my ass. Autopilot is unnerving to use. The car itself is just an appliance devoid…

So let me get this straight, you're raving about BMW's autonomous driver assistance but it cannot steer on the highway at 50 mph?

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#266

Post by throwaway894345 »

noirbot wrote: post #247
throwaway894345 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why the law requires people to follow at a safe distance. If you're only leaving room for "instant response times" then you had better have instant response times because you're liable.

The question isn't who's legally liable. The question is are you doing things more unsafely than you need to be. You don't have to be legally at fault to be doing something that's unsafe for other drivers to deal with. Sudden breaking at highway speeds, especially for no actual reason, even if the person behind you is following at a safe distance, is rolling the dice that every car behind you for a while is driving a…

You seem to view safety as some binary that doesn't account for frequency or severity of incidents. Your framing suggests you think it's better to continue with human drivers and the commensurate 40k lives lost each year than to use an AI that has even the slightest possibility of causing even the least significant accident irrespective of whether or not any accident occurs in practice.

I suggest it's better to compare a given AI with humans in terms of fatalities caused per million miles driven. If an AI performs a little better than humans it should be legalized and if it performs dramatically better than humans, it should be mandatory.

Of course, this is where we need more data and greater transparency so we can answer these questions.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#267

Post by robonerd »

jMyles wrote: post #260
robonerd wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can also say that about 1-in-5 deaths occur at what are supposed to be the safest places for pedestrians to cross roadways. I'd expect it to be far more remote if in fact intersections were designed for people instead of cars. Considering way more people use crosswalks than walk across the middle of the street, only 1-in-5 pedestrian deaths occurring in a crosswalk seems like a very strong signal. Ignoring such…

> Considering way more people use crosswalks than walk across the middle of the street It is impossible to find good data on this, so I don't understand why you're using a tone of certainty in this assertion. Anecdotally, I find this difficult to believe; it seems to me that the opposite is true (at least here in St. Pete, Florida). > Following the traditional road safety advice keeps kids very safe: Use the crosswal…

> You got me. I'm a wealthy lobbyist for big bike. I'm sorry I didn't disclose this earlier.

Bike lobby huh? Usually the anti-car position is motivated by environmentalism, or the social/economic inequalities inherent to car culture that have been baked into our public infrastructure. Those would all be much better reasons than the number of children killed by cars, but bike lobby... I guess that works too.

While it's not impossible that you're telling the truth, I just don't believe that children killed by cars is really the root of your beef against cars. Rather, I think you're cynically using a "think of the children" argument to advance some other agenda (likely some combination of environmental, social and economic.) By the data, 'think of the children' is the lamest of all the plausible motives to oppose cars.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#268

Post by kwhitefoot »

zardo wrote: post #156
silax wrote: post #113

2022 Model Y with FSD. I use Autopilot 50+ miles a day, and use it 98% of the way on trips from San Diego to SF. It infrequently phantom brakes, and more often brakes hard and late and sometimes people think I'm brake-checking them. It also is annoying slow to recover back to cruise speed from a slow down. Also if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable, I've been sandwiched…

> If you have the minimum distance set to 2 or 3 car lengths Does it use the same distance at all speeds?

No. It doesn't use distance but time. At 70 mph on cruise control in my 2015 Model S (AP1.5) the distance to the car in front is considerably more than three car lengths.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#269

Post by nilleo »

mattnibs wrote: post #194
jjulius wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But that said, once you learn the quirks it is extremely predictable and robust. I feel like a self-driving vehicle is one of those areas where nobody should have to "learn the quirks".

I'm pretty sure Tesla's with FSD get in less accidents when compared to the average driver. Mine tends to be frustratingly overly cautious in most cases.

Source?

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#270

Post by zozin »

VirusNewbie wrote: post #265
zozin wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just standard Tesla fanboy cope. The bottom line is that Tesla is shipping out alpha/beta software to the masses and relying on the masses to absorb the risks of crashing, causing accidents, dying, etc. in order for Tesla to iterate and possibly improve its software. I own an 2022 Model 3 Performance, so I'm not just talking out of my ass. Autopilot is unnerving to use. The car itself is just an appliance devoid…

So let me get this straight, you're raving about BMW's autonomous driver assistance but it cannot steer on the highway at 50 mph?

You misunderstood. It has effectively Level 3 autonomy on highways under 40MPH, "regular old" Level 2 otherwise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M-J3JydpPA

Post reply on HN