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I can't let go of “The Dunning-Kruger Effect is Autocorrelation”

andersource.dev

261–270 of 308 posts

Re: I can't let go of “The Dunning-Kruger Effect is Autocorrelation”

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> What's new is that any research that might produce results counter to the what the PC-mob deems acceptable is attacked. > No this is not new. I don't recall a PC-mob being used to silence any and all non-supportive voices until quite recently. > You have always have a direction set by political views, even if we have decided they are wrong they are still hard to kill like: smoking is good, white people are superio…

the “PC mob” might be new but we’ve had mobs of every political, religious, and cultural motivation pressuring academia since it’s invention.

The real problem is that all of those mobs have to answer to the PC mob now. Or at least that's what I hear from people who think that censorship didn't exist until coincidentally around the time of Gamergate.

Re: I can't let go of “The Dunning-Kruger Effect is Autocorrelation”

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given the structure of this question I assumed there'd be more than one right answer I did not, since the question is explicit about there being one correct answer only: “Which of the following is most strongly suggested by the government’s statement above?” > but this doesn't resemble the kind of logic test I'm used to. It's about unstated/assumed implications of natural language statements Agreed. > But (C) and (…

Ah yes - is vs are. You're right. I think I assumed there'd have to be >1 right answer after reading the options. It's a remarkably poor question, but option (C) isn't about doubts on the conclusive nature of this specific study, but rather the nature of all studies on all animals. You could credibly argue (and I'd hope a lawyer would!) that no government would base policy on doubting all animal studies and that thei…

If the validity or significance of the paper depends on whether LSAT questions are fit for DK's purpose, we have entered a much more subjective realm than whether they mishandled the statistical analysis - but as we are there, now, I feel that this particular question is not as bad as it is being portrayed.

Firstly, I think we should put aside the fact that it is labeled as a test of "logical reasoning": it is certainly not a test of formal logical reasoning, and an ambiguous or erroneous label does not necessarily make it a bad question (it is not necessary that it be characterized at all.)

Secondly, we are not logically obliged to accept that it has only one answer among the options presented, though if it has more or less than one while the people who posed it thought it had exactly one, that is a problem (I once was nearly expelled from a class for making this point at greater length than the instructor liked!) On the other hand, the question asks which of the candidate answers is most strongly suggested by the passage, which is not a statement that the others are false.

Here, however, it certainly has no more than one answer among the candidates: there is nothing in the passage that has any bearing on options A, B, D or E - this is perhaps most obvious in the case of B, but the others are like it. In particular, with respect to D, that specific issue is not raised, and furthermore, if it was the government's opinion now that D was the case to the extent of having a bearing on the decision, there would be no need to explain its position in terms of a potential future determination that the tests are inconclusive.

C, on the other hand, is suggested by the government's explanation: if the tests were conclusive, their future refutation would not be a worry.

As I said, this is not a test of formal logic, where the government's response would not imply the possibility of future refutation. Nevertheless, to explain something on the basis of a premise that is only formally possible would be almost as much an informal fallacy as begging the question, IMHO, and one might suspect it is being offered deceitfully (a concept that has no place at all in logic.)

The sort of analysis of natural language called for here (to see what are and are not the issues being considered) is useful and important, for lawyers and the rest of us, and it is, as I have set out above, more objective than "makes sense" or "sounds plausible." If people were more practiced in analytical reading, then corporations, governments and other organizations would less easily get away with blatant non-sequiturs in their explanations of their positions and actions ("there is no evidence the attackers took any personal or confidential information"...)

Re: I can't let go of “The Dunning-Kruger Effect is Autocorrelation”

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is DK not explicitly about assessing yourself and not about assessing others? I feel like being able to critique the performance of others is different from being able to critique yourself. There might be a correlation between the two, but they're not the same.

Thinking you know enough to critique others is a self-evaluation.

DK did not measure whether people think they know enough to critique others.

Re: I can't let go of “The Dunning-Kruger Effect is Autocorrelation”

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is DK not explicitly about assessing yourself and not about assessing others? I feel like being able to critique the performance of others is different from being able to critique yourself. There might be a correlation between the two, but they're not the same.

Thinking that you are better than the actual pros is the easiest to spot indicator of lacking self assessment, so.

DK did not measure any actual professionals.

Re: I can't let go of “The Dunning-Kruger Effect is Autocorrelation”

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree, the first study with the jokes seems silly. But I am also not from the field, maybe it is not actually as silly as it seems to me. But the other studies seem much better to me and removing the first one would not change the conclusions.

Is there supplemental material I didn't notice? I only scan read it after the joke section but I can't find any mention of supplemental data anywhere. That's a problem because although you say the other tests are better, no information appears to be provided on which we can judge that. Let's look at the second test. It's advertised as a "logic test". The description is: > Participants then completed a 20-item logical…

> It's about memorization of answers to pass law exams, not an actual test itself designed to verify logical reasoning ability. Why do they think this is a good source of questions for testing logic?

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? The paper doesn't claim to have anything to do with testing logic. It's about people's self-perception in relation to a task at which they are, or are not, competent. That task could be juggling watermelons or strangling geese for all it matters.

Re: I can't let go of “The Dunning-Kruger Effect is Autocorrelation”

#266
post #113
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the replication crisis? It's possible to use rigorously sound statistics to lie (or at least unknowingly spread falsehoods). I can't tell you how many times I've seen headlines or abstracts of studies that seem to contradict ones I've seen previously, and back and forth! Particularly in the social sciences. I recall one study that said all white people are committing environmental racism against all non-wh…

The issue here has not much to do with the replication crisis. It has to do with the fact that most people who use bits of information to make their point more convincing don't care whether that information is true or not. They are not seeking to convince the other side of the issue, they are seeking to convince other believers. It is literally like this: - someone makes a point that questions your believe - you goog…

That was Andrew Wakefield, FWIW. I totally agree with your point otherwise.

Re: I can't let go of “The Dunning-Kruger Effect is Autocorrelation”

#267
We’ll done. I read the autocorrelation post when it came out a couple weeks back and it didn’t sit right with me. But I didn’t have the motivation to figure out why. Your explanation resonates perfectly with my initial (snap) intuition and I thank you for taking the time to write it out and post!

Re: I can't let go of “The Dunning-Kruger Effect is Autocorrelation”

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if an effect can be replicated with random noise, then it's not a psychological effect This isn't true either. Statistical dependence does not determine or uniquely identify causal interpretation or system structure. See Judea Pearl's works (e.g. The Book of Why) for more on this. People lacking the ability to self-assess is interesting psychologically. People can learn from experience in many other contexts. Peopl…

Sure, it's an interesting question, but if the way you're measuring it can't be distinguished from noise, you need to find a different measure.

"Noise" isn't a generic concept that can be universally applied in the same way in any scientific context. That's the point of the article. It doesn't make much sense to assume that people's self-assessments come from an internal random number generator.

It makes sense as a robotically developed null hypothesis, but it doesn't make sense in the real world.

Re: I can't let go of “The Dunning-Kruger Effect is Autocorrelation”

#269
post #24
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's assuming more ignorance than even an unskilled person has. If you had never listened to a professional play piano before then you'd have no idea what level of performance is possible. Similarly, if you had never seen skilled skaters perform on TV. But we have done these things, so it's obvious that they're doing something that's very difficult. Maybe you don't fully appreciate the skill, though. You wo…

It's more like intermediate (most vulnerable to the DK-effect) to advanced (utmost appreciation for professionals). Taking the piano example: after 1-2 years of progressive learning you can certainly give off the impression to somebody unfamiliar/untrained (including yourself to an extent) that you are actually quite good: Intermediate stage. But after awhile when confronted with more and more challenging stuff, by d…

Further one travels the less one knows - Lao Zu

Re: I can't let go of “The Dunning-Kruger Effect is Autocorrelation”

#270
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there supplemental material I didn't notice? I only scan read it after the joke section but I can't find any mention of supplemental data anywhere. That's a problem because although you say the other tests are better, no information appears to be provided on which we can judge that. Let's look at the second test. It's advertised as a "logic test". The description is: > Participants then completed a 20-item logical…

> It's about memorization of answers to pass law exams, not an actual test itself designed to verify logical reasoning ability. Why do they think this is a good source of questions for testing logic? I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? The paper doesn't claim to have anything to do with testing logic. It's about people's self-perception in relation to a task at which they are, or are not, competent. That…

> The paper doesn't claim to have anything to do with testing logic.

The paper reports on the results of a 'logic' test administered to undergrads and uses this to define competence. It's a key part of their evidence their effect is real.

> It's about people's self-perception in relation to a task at which they are, or are not, competent. That task could be juggling watermelons or strangling geese for all it matters.

The specific tasks matter a great deal.

The whole paper relies very heavily on the following assumption: DK can accurately and precisely tell the difference between competence and lack of competence. In other words, that they know the right answers to the questions they're asking their undergrads.

In theory this isn't a difficult bar to meet. They work at a school and schools do standardized testing on a routine basis. There are lots of difficult tasks for which there are objectively correct and incorrect answers, like a maths test.

But when we read their paper, the first two tasks they chose aren't replicable, meaning we can't verify DK actually knew the right answers. Plus the first task is literally a joke. There isn't even a right answer to the question to begin with, so their definition of "competence" is meaningless. The other tasks might or might not have right answers that DK correctly selected, but we can't verify that for ourselves (OK, I didn't check their grammar test but given the other two are unverifiable why bother).

That's a problem because the DK effect could appear in another situation they didn't consider: what if DK don't actually know the right answers to their questions but their students do. If this occurs then what you'd see is this: some students would answer with the "wrong" (right) answers and rate their own confidence highly, because they know their answer is correct and don't realize the professors disagree. Other students might realize that the professors are expecting a different answer and put down the "right" (wrong) answer, but they'd know they were playing a dangerous game and so rate their confidence as lower. That's all it would take to create the DK effect without the underlying effect actually existing. To exclude this possibility we have to be able to check that DK's answers to their own test questions are correct, but we can't verify that. Nor should we take it on faith given their dubious approach to question design.

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