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Time to fork the FSF

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Re: Time to fork the FSF

#261

Post by Aga »

loso wrote: post #240
bcrescimanno wrote: post #3

I tweeted earlier that I see RMS as the Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist Church) of Free Software. He may not have started out this way; but these days he's completely single issue. If you're not doing free software 100% his way; you not only disagree with him but you are actually evil. Not just free software; but free software as RMS defines it(see GNU/Linux) or you're wrong. He's so blinded by his own zealotry that I'…

When I first saw the post by RMS, I tried to hold back my initial desire to simply post "He's an asshole". I tried to take the emotion away from it but found that I couldn't. I couldn't find the right words so I posted nothing. You posted my exact feelings in a more intelligent way than I ever could have. RMS and people like him in the free software community is why I have never 100% committed to a free software way…

The fundamental difference between the ones like Apple/Microsoft and RMS/FSF is that the latter don't seek to be in control in the way the former do. RMS/FSF actually oppose to the idea and instead seek to educate people for the peoples own benefit.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#262

Post by cookiecaper »

__david__ wrote: post #168
cookiecaper wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please dude. iTunes was very late to the game. eMusic? Most early music stores had no DRM. Jobs leveraged the popularity of the iPod with iTunes (which, by the way, is not allowed to talk to any other program under normal circumstances) to make Apple a ton of money. As was the case with iPhone, Apple was big enough to force the hand of the industry-controlling posse into accepting things on its own terms. While they…

> Most early music stores had no DRM. Yeah, but they also had no music. Apple used their near monopoly of online music to force the majors into selling DRM free music online. That deserves praise.

I don't know if I really agree that a large company using its influence to strong-arm "partners" into accepting terms favorable to itself is really that praiseworthy. We are fortunate that in this case Apple's incentives aligned with those of its users -- DRM is a huge PITA for the company that runs the DRM infrastructure as well as a problem for the company's users.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#263

Post by cookiecaper »

coffeeaddicted wrote: post #244
tallanvor wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with Stallman, not because I believe everything has to be FOSS, but because I believe users should have the freedom to make their own decisions about how they use their devices, and that's something that Apple products work hard to remove - case in point, their refusal to allow Flash to run on iOS. They may not want it there and HTML5 may be the better choice in the long run, but they are denying use…

Stallman doesn't even want that users know about that option. From Wikiquote: "The Adobe flash plug-in is non-free software, and people should not install it, or suggest installing it, or even tell people it exists."

This is different than "people should write their operating systems to proactively disallow installation of non-free software."

Note that the FSF even produces and distributes builds for Windows. Here's an example: http://www.gnu.org/s/mit-scheme . Most FSF projects that don't produce Windows builds directly provide information on where they can be found.

Stallman may not want people raising the profile of proprietary software, but he certainly doesn't advocate cathedral-style control of a users' computing platform.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#264

Post by nknight »

DanBC wrote: post #230
sharmajai wrote: post #221

Fuck you RMS. I have been and still am a staunch believer in open source, but when I read comments like this from the person who's motto once was that everybody writing software should contribute the source back to the community, not because it delivers better software (due to the more eyeballs resulting in fewer bugs), but because it results in moving software forward quickly by virtue of helping each other out, I a…

>If you think Steve's products hamper your freedom Try and explain how to boot a MacBookPro from USB stick to someone, and compare that to booting almost any other computer. Or explain how to dual boot a Mac with OSX and Linux, vs anything else with Windows and Linux.

> Try and explain how to boot a MacBookPro from USB stick to someone

You hold down the Option key while booting.

> Or explain how to dual boot a Mac with OSX and Linux

Install rEFIt (comes in a nice, standard OS X installer package), use the nice GUI Bootcamp or Disk Utility apps to make a partition, insert the Linux CD, reboot while holding down C.

If you're incapable of following these instructions, I seriously doubt you can manage to boot from a USB stick or dual-boot Windows and Linux on any typical PC.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#265

Post by 5hoom »

lhnn wrote: post #249
loso wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I first saw the post by RMS, I tried to hold back my initial desire to simply post "He's an asshole". I tried to take the emotion away from it but found that I couldn't. I couldn't find the right words so I posted nothing. You posted my exact feelings in a more intelligent way than I ever could have. RMS and people like him in the free software community is why I have never 100% committed to a free software way…

Really, RMS being a dick keeps you from using, developing, and supporting free software? Your level of support is not that great, then.

I didn't read anything about being kept from "using, developing, and supporting free software".

I did read: "Even though I contribute to the open source world in my own small way and see the importance of it, I find myself caring less and less about the philosophy behind it".

Please enlighten us, what level of support would you deem acceptable? Anything less than complete and exclusive acceptance of the goals of the FSF?

I'm sure a middle road exists.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#266

Post by jessriedel »

jpadvo wrote: post #70
sgentle wrote: post #21

I don't get it, personally. Yes, Stallman's a loon - although as an aside I think that every good movement needs its loons. Who's going to say "you know what? I believe in Free Software so much that I will use nothing else, and publicly and harshly declare that anyone doing otherwise is a moron and a traitor to the future of humanity"? Anyone who is willing to sacrifice the usefulness of the last 30 years of propriet…

The issue is not at all with his opinion. It is that he expressed it in a horrendously, gratuitously crass and offensive way. Here is a transliteration into humane language of what he said: "My heart goes out to Steve Jobs' family in their time of grief. And my heart also goes to the millions of people who looked up to him as an icon and inspiration. But we need to not get so carried away honoring the dead that we fo…

Mostly off-topic, but...

>The reason we mourn when a loved one dies is precisely because that means they are gone.

Not true! If I knew my close friend or family member was moving to a remote location such that I'd never see or hear from them again, I'd be sad but it would be a lot less sad than if they died. When someone dies, we don't just mourn the loss of their interactions we us (wouldn't that be a bit selfish?), we mourn the fact that they are aren't experiencing life anymore.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#267

Post by aaronmorey »

rufugee wrote: post #174
0x12 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it doesn't make me want to spend an entire Saturday trying to get Linux to recognize my sound card. Stuff like that is FUD though, linux sound support is pretty good these days and the amount and variety of devices supported dwarfs the best the commercial world has to offer. In general, Linux support of legacy devices is amazing. Newly minted hardware without a factory supported driver is a different kettle of…

This. I haven't had to troubleshoot a hardware problem in years, and I use Linux daily and install it quite often (I touch a lot of hardware). Don't subtly degrade something with FUD unless you speak from recent experience.

The open source world will also be better off when everyone stops using the word "FUD". It's a knee jerk term that allows the speaker to ignore criticism as lies. I am speaking from experience. The sound issue happened to me about two years ago. About six months ago I tried dual booting Linux on my MacBook and couldn't get it to shut down without hanging.

You're making my point. I (someone who works in the software industry) had a problem with a piece of open source software. If the open source world is going to go mainstream, the reaction can't be "That's FUD." It has to be "That's unacceptable, we need to fix this immediately."

Don't do it for me. If I decide the tradeoff of effort vs. benefit is worthwhile, I can eventually resolve the problem myself. Do it for my mom, who just wants the printer to work so she can print handouts for her students. Do it for your grandparents who just want to check their email and look at their grandkid's pictures. Or just tell me I'm an anti-open source propagandist and dismiss me.

I've made my decision. Computers are made for people, not people for computers.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#268

Post by bad_user »

jpadvo wrote: post #70
sgentle wrote: post #21

I don't get it, personally. Yes, Stallman's a loon - although as an aside I think that every good movement needs its loons. Who's going to say "you know what? I believe in Free Software so much that I will use nothing else, and publicly and harshly declare that anyone doing otherwise is a moron and a traitor to the future of humanity"? Anyone who is willing to sacrifice the usefulness of the last 30 years of propriet…

The issue is not at all with his opinion. It is that he expressed it in a horrendously, gratuitously crass and offensive way. Here is a transliteration into humane language of what he said: "My heart goes out to Steve Jobs' family in their time of grief. And my heart also goes to the millions of people who looked up to him as an icon and inspiration. But we need to not get so carried away honoring the dead that we fo…

     Wasn't that better? And it communicated 
     substantively the same thing
Personally I'm tired of people kissing ass and sucking cock, delivering shit in chocolate coating with a cherry on top.

No, that isn't better and it does not communicate the same thing.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#269

Post by vacri »

Locke1689 wrote: post #199
0x12 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it doesn't make me want to spend an entire Saturday trying to get Linux to recognize my sound card. Stuff like that is FUD though, linux sound support is pretty good these days and the amount and variety of devices supported dwarfs the best the commercial world has to offer. In general, Linux support of legacy devices is amazing. Newly minted hardware without a factory supported driver is a different kettle of…

Newly minted hardware without a factory supported driver is a different kettle of fish but you can't really blame the Linux driver writers for that, they need information to work with and if manufacturers are not going to supply that info it needs to be painstakingly recovered, which is not always possible and almost always incomplete to some extent. Who cares? It doesn't work. When I buy an Apple laptop I know all t…

So you're after short-term profits instead of long-term gains? Supporting a locked-in system now strengthens that system, but supporting an open system may take longer to get to 'effortless', but you'll be able to do more down the track.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#270

Post by vacri »

microtonal wrote: post #135
rwmj wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The RMS posting is hardly "horrendously, gratuitously crass and offensive".

No, it is completely distasteful, and representative of actions that caused me to slowly change from being an FSF associate member to believing that FSF is a threat to free software rather than an asset. Of course, RMS is not speaking for the FSF here, but there in recent years there is a history of missteps (Emacs virgins) and childish campaigns (Windows 7 sinds, Bad Vista, etc.) associated with the FSF. It seems th…

Sounds like you are against pretty much all forms of public protest, due to 'inconveniencing'.
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