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Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

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Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#261

Post by thow-58d4e8b »

tarsinge wrote: post #140
CodeArtisan wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 to "enforce peace". Same with Crimea in 2014. Then Luhansk and Donetsk a few days ago. Now the rest of Ukraine. Discussion with Putin is futile. When Russia started sending troops next to the Ukraine borders, NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev. It's too late now.

> Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 to "enforce peace". Same with Crimea in 2014. Then Luhansk and Donetsk a few days ago. Now the rest of Ukraine. Discussion with Putin is futile. Just remember that the USA played the same kind of playbook (maybe worse) in Syria and Iraq. It's equally condamnable, but it can give you some perspective to see through media portrayal.

Kosovo is a more apt comparison. There's no way of condemning annexation of the breakaway regions, while defending doing the same with Kosovo - without coming out as a hypocrite who bends the facts to fit his needs

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#262

Post by mrjin »

HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #217
jl6 wrote: post #121

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/rus Russia’s exports are >50% oil and gas products. The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables.

Unfortunately countries like Germany have made completely idiotic moves in the past months in the exact opposite direction. Hopefully other sanctions will also help. Cutting them off from the international banking system, for example.

You serious? Each nation has their own interests. MAGA has obviously proved blindly following was a really bad idea.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#263

Post by originalvichy »

wiz21c wrote: post #118

Why does Putin try to invade parts of Ukraine ? What's its interest ? Is it economical ? is it for interior politics ? is it to destabilize Europe ? does someone can conjecture a bit ?

A Russian-speaking democracy on their border is unacceptable to them. It will serve to help Russia itself to become a democracy which again is unacceptable to them.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#264

Post by snemvalts »

pyuser583 wrote: post #138
zokier wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assure all the people of Estonia that there is no direct military threat to Estonia and that the situation in Estonia and at our external border is calm," Kallas [Estonias PM] emphasised.

I think the concern is a gigantic flood of refugees.

Estonian here, our society is unequivocally happy to take them. Most will probably go to Poland and surrounding countries of Ukraine first though.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#265

Post by travisgriggs »

woodpanel wrote: post #238
travisgriggs wrote: post #170

Sometimes, compromise and diplomacy are a wonderful thing. But sometimes, there is no real compromise and the can just gets kicked down the road with what feels like compromise but really is just festering. I’ve seen many a historian posit that the 3/5 compromise was a compromise that ultimately germinated the civil war. They kicked the can down the road til its very rotten contents spilled over. Part of me wonders i…

Russia is the last colonial empire and as such under constant threat of disintegration by the spread of outside political ideologies like ethno-nationalism, liberal democracy or communism (whose introduction by Germany did a pretty "big number" on Russia until Communist Russia eventually faced the same geostrategic power struggle the Tsarist Empire faced). So when speaking of "aggrevation" always factor in the perspe…

Is a buffer state a lasting peace though?

In any mechanical system, if your design is “lets give one part of the system all the stress” but said component is not proportionately strengthened or incentivized, it fails eventually, bringing the rest of the system down with it.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#266

Post by eej71 »

jl6 wrote: post #121

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/rus Russia’s exports are >50% oil and gas products. The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables.

Many countries could also source fossil fuels from friendly allies. But those allies would have to be interested in extracting it from their own sources.

From my stand point, and this will be very unpopular here, the push to rely on the unreliables (a better name for the renewables) has been toxic and is a destabilizing force in the world.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#267

Post by watwut »

DocTomoe wrote: post #202
reitanqild wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for pointing out. I'm comparing Germanys "helpful" occupations of neighboring countries "to help the poor Germans there against abuse" inhabitants to Putin's attempt to occupy Ukraine "to protect all the poor Russians there against genocide."

In all fairness, unlike Poland in 1939, Ukraine is not a country that managed to wage war against almost every single of their neighbours in the 20 years before the bigger fish came taking a bite. That doesn't make Hitler any less a criminal - it just explains how his casus belli sounded more believable back in the day. If we are comparing history, let's get the whole picture.

Hitler was actually quite open about his "conquest for living space" project and goals. It was believable only if you wanted to believe and afaik, they did not believed him at the time.

They mostly thought they are not ready for the full scale war yet, but that is different calculation.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#268

Post by ed_balls »

MrDresden wrote: post #249
ed_balls wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> end of the world They are all rational actors. Turks killed Russian solders in Syria, where they nuked? Putin is bluffing. In case of aggression, you have to sand your ground, there is no other option.

Are you truly comparing the "accidental" shooting down of a military plane to an actual boots on the ground invasion of a sovereign nation? These are so wastly different that mentioning apples and oranges doesn't even come close to it.

It was not accidental. A plane capable of caring nuclear bombs was in their airspace.

I'm not comparing anything - I was referring to "end of the world". According to Turkish strategist, nuclear weapon is not usable, so they have no problem to retaliate.

End of world is impossible.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#269

Post by watwut »

RobertoG wrote: post #206
watwut wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One country is attacked by neighborhooding country with history of expanding into neighborhooding countries. > Russian, simply can't allow more of the board, specially one part so close, to be dominated by the opponent. Russian in fact could allow that. Whether Ukraine joins Nato should be between Ukraine internal debate and Nato internal debate. That Ukraine has both opinions present does not excuse nor explain Russ…

That's all very nice, but, unfortunately is not how the world works. What about the Donbas region, do they have the right to decide in an internal debate? Instead of trying to be pro-Russian or pro-West, Ukraine have lost a chance of become Switzerland and make a live getting presents from both sides. Now, I think, it's going to be split.

> Instead of trying to be pro-Russian or pro-West, Ukraine have lost a chance of become Switzerland and make a live getting presents from both sides. Now, I think, it's going to be split.

Bullshit. And yes, I am anti-Russian expansion. This is a threat to myself, my family, my friends and my kids, actually. I am very pro-western and very happy my home country managed to be nato member.

Stop paining equivalence between Russia and Nato now.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#270

Post by mrjin »

thow-58d4e8b wrote: post #236
MattGaiser wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese at least care about their material prosperity. Russia seems fine with whatever sanctions fall on their lap.

Sanctions barely work on small countries. They're but a nuisance for mid-sized countries and do approximately nothing to big countries. Russian economy is mostly autarkic - consuming overwhelmingly goods and services produced within Russia. Their exports are energy commodities, not consumer goods - energy commodities are the bedrock of the modern world - they'll always find a buyer at market price or slightly below.…

Not only that, US has been ripping off other countries using US$ for a very long time. And that why lots of countries now try to establish treaties of currency exchanging and reduce the usage of US$.
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