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No one cared about my spreadsheets

econlib.org

261–270 of 413 posts

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#261
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Probably because any attempt to even reduce the topic to a spreadsheet is a case of "not even wrong"." But he didn't reduce it to a spreadsheet, he wrote a very thorough book. > "When someone says that they proved that say, studying art doesn't matter, with math, you don't bother arguing with their math." I am not sure what you think Caplan says. His book is mostly about the signalling and human capital models of…

>I am not sure what you think Caplan says. His book is mostly about the signalling and human capital models of education. The vast majority of post-secondary students say they attend post-secondary education in order to increase their future earnings, so Caplan calculates the financial impact of various degrees, and then figures out how much is attributable to the various factors. So I was quite intrigued when I read…

> I was considering reading the book to see what the calculations are and how they refute those correlations.

He talks about this stuff too, for example, as education is correlated with health, he also estimates health benefits in his return to education calculations.

The problem with many correlations that you mention is that they are, indeed, just correlation. There is scant evidence on there being casual relationship, or, for that matter, the direction of causality (eg., couldn’t it be that more prosperity allows people to consume more formal education, rather than formal education bringing about prosperity?).

> Now from what you're saying, he actually wrote a book with a click-bait title and which is about something very different from what the title implies (I guess "on the financial return of investment of a college education" would not have gotten the attention he wanted). And now he is complaining that education researchers are not engaging?

Financial return to education is just one chapter of his book. The book is actually really detailed, and covers multitude of aspects. In fact, in the very blog post you are commenting under, Caplan in explicitly says:

> Some critics called me a philistine: “Education isn’t about making money; it’s about becoming a whole person.” Never mind that I wrote a whole chapter against this misinterpretation.

Of course, nobody expects you to actually have read his book before you can express an opinion about topics it concerns, but maybe, before accusing him of clickbait and stirring artificial controversy, or his alleged bitterness that ed researchers are not engaging (he’s not even saying that, by the way), at least read the article you’re commenting under.

> As a side note, why is this even economics

This is a trend in academia over past decade or two. Basically, the traditional social science fields are so degenerate, dysfunctional, and ideologically rigid, that a lot of quantitatively-minded people who are keenly interested in social science topics, but are repelled by the reality of academic environment, instead flock to Economics, where rigor is higher, and ideology is less rigidly constraining.

Look at new papers on NBER, for example:

https://www.nber.org/papers

Half of them is just social science dressed as economics. That’s why Econ departments are growing.

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#262

Isn't the real problem the economisation of education? The desire to express the value of education in monetary terms is really only useful for those running education businesses, like e.g. many of today's universities in the US ans UK. One side effect of the economisation of education is the desire to quantify and standardise "academic quality". For example, setting minimum pass rates for modules, which ultimately l…

> Students who graduated from such universities often are more capable of independent thinking in my experience. Germany: 111 Nobel Laureates University of Columbia: 83 Nobel Laureates The whole country struggled to produce just a little more than one American university. They may think more independently, but it seems that it was so independent as to fail to advance human knowledge much more than a single American u…

It would be interesting to see the split: Out of 83 Nobel Laureates, how many gained their education in University of Columbia? How many were professors that moved to University of Columbia after receiving their education somewhere else?

For example: Horst Ludwig Störmer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Ludwig_St%C3%B6rmer

German scientist, but point goes to University of Columbia

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#263
post #170
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, insofar in that qualitative social science is ineffective. It's effective. Nobody listens. The fallacy of "general management" means that general managers, who have a background in finance and cost/benefit, are not receptive to the idea that deep knowledge is extremely involved in leadership and decision making. Because then they'd be out of a job.

If evidence we obtain from social sciences is so effective, why are they suffering from deep and wide reaching replication crisis?

If people start publishing faked physics papers, does that mean physics is no longer an effective source for engineering?

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#264
post #71
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just possibly, dude, your argument isn't worth anyone else's time to debunk. Wow, that's one of the most dismissive remarks I've seen here in quite a while. It also does not seem like you could possibly believe it yourself. Education is a huge chunk of everyone's life, of course it's important to know the upsides and downsides. The returns are one aspect (I haven't read the book, it honestly sounds depressing, but…

> Wow, that's one of the most dismissive remarks I've seen here in quite a while. It also does not seem like you could possibly believe it yourself. It's a natural thing. If you come up with an implausible sounding thing supported by a very complicated argument then most likely you made a mistake. It is very easy to make mistakes and very hard to find them. If you have a 1000 page proof that 2*2 is 5 I won't spend my…

So i bought his book (10 pounds down the drain, I will never get back) I’m barelly in the first chapter and already feel cheated.

The title “case against education”, and the subtitle “why the education system is a waste of time and money” makes it feel like it will be about the whole concept of education and it will show, well “why the education system is a waste of time and money”. Turns out he is already backpedaling from that conclusion in the first chapter. He says he doesn’t talk about the kind of education which teaches usefull skills. Surprise surprise, if you remove the good stuff from an endevour what remains won’t be worth much. To quote from the book:

> Lest I be misinterpreted, I emphatically affirm that some education teaches usefull skills, or, as economists put it, “builds human capital.”

“Lest I be misinterpreted” oh no! Maybe you shouldn’t put your “clickbaity” nonsense statement which goes against your stance on the front cover of your book then? Jeez.

And if the author is reading this: please kindly give me back my money and time.

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#265

Isn't the real problem the economisation of education? The desire to express the value of education in monetary terms is really only useful for those running education businesses, like e.g. many of today's universities in the US ans UK. One side effect of the economisation of education is the desire to quantify and standardise "academic quality". For example, setting minimum pass rates for modules, which ultimately l…

This is a problem with much of mainstream economics. Start by defining everything worth measuring as the things you can measure, then build elaborate models around those measurements, then declare success when your models yield an output. Finally, influence policy to try get more of one measurable and less of another.

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#266
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read the book and it is pretty common sense and reasonable. I recommend you to read the book too.

Arguments that are common sense and reasonable are not necessarily true. The book is not pair reviewed, and I prefer scientific research over a spreadsheet so I will skip.

The book is not peer reviewed, yes, but it meticulously cites (peer reviewed) social science research for most of its claims. I did spot checks and citations are good. (Through checks would be full time work. 1/7 of the book is dedicated to references.)

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#267
I haven't looked at the spreadsheets either, or read the book.

But this sentence stood out when I scanned the web page:

> How unpleasant school is compared to work.

That was very much not my experience and my working life was pretty good too. Am I an outlier? Or just lucky that I didn't grow up in the US?

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#268
> Almost none of it, however, was quantitative.

Of course not, almost none of the significant disagreement in the broad public debate on policy is about details of quantitative analysis, it's about value propositions that frame (among other questions) what quantitative analysis is even relevant.

If you publish an academic paper with quantitative analysis, academics will tear into the details of analysis (maybe, if the fact question it addresses is considered important to other people in the field.) If you publish a work aimed at a popular audience and intended as policy advocacy, and it's full of heavy quantitative analysis, you haven't understood the domain you are operating in.

Long-form heavily analytical work does have a role in informing policy debates, but that role is in wonkish intrafactional debates among policy types within the group that already agrees with you on values.

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#269
post #247

Isn't the real problem the economisation of education? The desire to express the value of education in monetary terms is really only useful for those running education businesses, like e.g. many of today's universities in the US ans UK. One side effect of the economisation of education is the desire to quantify and standardise "academic quality". For example, setting minimum pass rates for modules, which ultimately l…

> Isn't the real problem the economisation of education? The desire to express the value of education in monetary terms is really only useful for those running education businesses, like e.g. many of today's universities in the US ans UK. I'm a big fan of education. However, when education is subsidized, you're implicitly making the decision that it's more important to pay for that education than to pay for e.g. more…

> when education is subsidized, you're implicitly making the decision that it's more important to pay for that education than to pay for e.g. more help for the homeless,

Not everywhere. Next to no homeless people here in Scandinavia yet education is universally available at almost no cost to the student.

The US is richer both in absolute terms and per capita so lack of money is presumably not the reason for the difference.

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#270
post #214
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If evidence we obtain from social sciences is so effective, why are they suffering from deep and wide reaching replication crisis?

It's more of a case that bad science was made, rather than "this type of science is bad." Toyota and GM have had widespread vehicle recalls in recent types. I wouldn't put that down to "4 wheeled transportation devices being intrinsically bad."

It depends how deep and far-reaching it is. Cars in the 60s caused smog and used leaded fuel, so they were all pretty bad at the same time. Perhaps the field needs a similar size of transition as the change to unleaded (too many "leading questions" perhaps).
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