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The Factorio Mindset

thediff.co

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Re: The Factorio Mindset

#261
post #241

My problem with games like Factorio (and more recently Oxygen no Included), is that after I get addicted and get up past 100 hours of gameplay I start to question what the hell I'm doing with my life. Up until that point it's great fun designing, building, and optimizing, but then a switch in my head flips. I start to become anxious about the fact that I was excited about getting better at skills in a virtual world.…

I feel this way too. I feel like games like factorio "sap my energy" for applying the same skills in real life.

I'm sure that if I applied myself in the same obsessive/borderline-autisitc manner that factorio brings out of me, I could accomplish real world things that actually matter to my life.

I feel like HN browsing also does this to some extent. Makes me feel smart and very technical - but I don't actually DO anything with this knowledge.

Re: The Factorio Mindset

#262

I own a copy of Factorio, yet I never play it. Whenever I think about playing Factorio, I think what I really want to do is emulate biology, not industrial machinery. I want a game that lets me alter genomes slightly and try out several branches to see which ones are better for the world I'm trying to create. I want to fast forward through time so that evolution can run its course, then if I don't like the outcome, I…

Check out Gridworld

Re: The Factorio Mindset

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got sucked into Satisfactory a while back. After about 100 hours in the game, I was standing at the top of a cliff looking at my creation and said to myself "I'm the worst ecological disaster this planet has ever seen." I'm planning to start a new save soon, and I think I'm going to try playing with some self-imposed rules, like not removing vegetation. Not as much, anyways. I'm not exactly a budding architect; whe…

>myself "I'm the worst ecological disaster this planet has ever seen." Really? Worse than an asteroid strike, a massive volcanic eruption, a massive flood? Blights and other naturally occurring diseases that have wiped out entire species are much worse ecological disasters than building an entire Manhattan. If you building was the worst thing that ever happened to that planet, it wasn’t modeled as a real planet in th…

In a sense they were the only ecological disaster the planet had ever seen. Something isn't a 'disaster' unless there's some sentient observer to judge the outcome. Asteroid strikes, volcanic eruptions, floods, gamma ray bursts, black holes... they're not disasters, just events, until someone gets upset about them.

Re: The Factorio Mindset

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm frustrated because these types of opinions are everywhere. Especially factorio: https://www.google.com/search?q=factorio+is+like+programming There are tons and tons of these.

I program, and I've played Factorio. It feels kind of like programming, so it does not frustrate me that such an opinion can be found everywhere. Is it your opinion that Factorio does not have elements of gameplay that require (or benefit from) an approach to what is used in programming?

I've played Factorio since 0.13 and am a professional programmer.

It bothers me that people see an equivalence between Factorio and Programming. There's some degrees of programming-like problems, such as spanning trees, graph theory, tree-theory, etc. etc. But Factorio is grossly simplified to comp. sci problems in general.

In particular, the Factorio build tree starts at (Iron/Copper/Stone/Coal/Oil) and ends with (Red/Green/Blue/Purple/Yellow/White science).

Most problems are solved with backpressure. The one exception is oil production (Crude-oil -> Heavy/Light/Gas), which can bottleneck other productions. (Ex: if Heavy oil is deadlocked, light-oil is also blocked). But with an "infinite sink" of science (blue/yellow science uses a lot of Petroleum gas), this problem is solved by simply playing the game more.

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Real world programming problems are far more complex. Graphs in fact loop more often, simple trees are rare. Data-organization is far more complex.

In contrast, Factorio has a large number of "valid solutions" because its a simpler problem. Keeping things "simply" a tree with only one multi-output (oil production) really is simple in the great scheme of things.

That said, it is more complex than most games. OpenTTD is more complex when it comes to transportation patterns (path signals, entry, exit, and combo signals, block signals. Tunnels, bridges, etc. etc.). I would recommend Factorio players to try OpenTTD, and see if they can create higher-bandwidth OpenTTD routes than Factorio's simplified train system.

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I know some Comp. Sci. I'm going to make my n-way balancers off of Benes Networks and CLOS Network designs. But I look at "circuits" and see "vector programming system" and not actually a wire-like / circuit system. The things that are "like programming" aren't very clear IMO. Its somewhat rare for me to actually need to use combinators / circuits in Factorio, because the default actions of all entities "just works" most of the time.

Wube / the original designers are clearly good programmers. The system / game they have made "feels like the fun part" of programming, where you connect mostly-completed systems together in a chain that almost always works. That's because the difficult part of design / architecture has already been done for us by Wube.

Actual programmers designing an API for widespread use come across the same problem. You wanna create an interface that's easy to understand and fun to work with. Wube is clearly good at this. But that makes us at best, the "script kiddies" who simply are laying out Wube's designs, more so than actual "programmers" who express ourselves.

IMO anyway. This isn't a bad thing. The fact that its fun despite all this is a huge degree of success from Wube.

Re: The Factorio Mindset

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't you be a bit hostile if aliens landed on your world and started exploiting it?

it's quite easy to put a dent in the "poor good alien" narrative: stand around doing nothing. once enough time passes, biters will kill you irregardless. mind it does take a while for them to come get you, but they will come: https://i.imgur.com/GFxUvu4.png so the engineer motive is clear: survival, not invasion. besides, the aliens are an infestation, not part of the ecosystem; as a matter of fact, alien left to the…

> aliens are there to consume, no less than the engineer.

Same as all other life really.

Re: The Factorio Mindset

#266
post #241

My problem with games like Factorio (and more recently Oxygen no Included), is that after I get addicted and get up past 100 hours of gameplay I start to question what the hell I'm doing with my life. Up until that point it's great fun designing, building, and optimizing, but then a switch in my head flips. I start to become anxious about the fact that I was excited about getting better at skills in a virtual world.…

I got really into it for a while and had to stop for the same reason. Plus the whole aesthetic and theme of the game felt gross to me.

Re: The Factorio Mindset

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will be a problem in a few hundred years of our energy consumption continues growing at this rate; I've done the math on this website a year or two ago.

At the rate our energy consumption is growing, even if we avoid climate change wrecking our society today, the heat waste of our energy production will start to eclipse the effects of climate change in only a few centuries, at most a millenium. Which isn’t that long of a time.

Depends on the source of energy production - if we're drawing all our energy from solar and wind, then we're not introducing new energy into the earth. That's the problem with fossil fuels - we're reintroducing sequestered carbon into the atmosphere; if we were to burn wood instead and keep the carbon cycle in balance then it wouldn't be an issue. Nuclear energy does introduce new energy though, so that could cause issues.

Re: The Factorio Mindset

#268
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my biggest annoyance with Eco. It really does take a community, which is disappointing because you can't scale it down to 1-4 players. Are there any mods for this?

They've recently revamped it so you can adjust various levels (skill increase, cap, multipliers, etc) and make it possible to play with fewer. I've actually run a couple of single-player games, completely vanilla. Fun in a different sort of way.

>I've actually run a couple of single-player games, completely vanilla.

I'll have to give it another go then. Do you have any recommended settings for this?

Re: The Factorio Mindset

#269

Going to give a shoutout to https://anuke.itch.io/mindustry and https://songsofsyx.com/ In particular, mindustry can actually run scripts within the game to automate a lot of things. If you like factorio you're going to like these 2 games.

I tried Mindustry a bit and found it not very appealing, but looking back at it I realize a big part of that is just the visual appeal - or the lack of one.

Song of Syx looks interesting though, definitely worth at least a try. Thanks for the recommendation.

Re: The Factorio Mindset

#270
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The game allows one to disable the wildlife, no mods required, so it’s possible to focus solely on game without dealing with it at all. However. I do think it’s a pretty amazing mechanic that the game designers put in the game, and is a great tool to shine light on the darkest aspect of the human race: our unbelievable capacity to subdue and destroy. Factorio isn’t just about being dropped in a war zone and shooting…

What do you mean "speculate"? Seems pretty straightforward: you're polluting and killing the native life. And? Do that in real life = bad. Do that in a game = ok. I think we all know that.

This post is titled "The Factorio Mindset" and the author spends a lot of time talking about why it's something positive that should be cultivated. I'm not so sure we do all know that.
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