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Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

jasonstanford.substack.com

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Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first night in Tokyo with a group of friends, we had an amazing multi-hour meal with loads of drinks and generally catching up. We knew we didn't have to, but we tipped generously by American standards. We got chased into the street by two of the waiters and had a large argument with neither side wanting to take the tip money. I assumed tips would be "not expected, but quietly accepted" which turned out to be not…

"We knew we didn't have to, but we did it because we are Americans and we don't care about other cultures". Not a quote, but how many people will read that. I think they are somehow right. In Europe and Asia the American tourists have some bad reputation, for a reason. In Paris (France) we asked some waiters about this and the answers were very strong (I was with some locals, so the waiters were very open to speak up…

I agree that’s a somewhat correct reading; we (obviously?) didn’t do it on later meals. I think it’s fair to say there’s a reasonable gap between “you don’t have to” and “you really ought not”.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

> I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. Is it growing, or is it just unpleasant/impolite to state that a large segment of the population consists of jerks so we keep forgetting?

> Is it growing

I'm not sure how to empirically measure incivility but it seems like it might be... There's certainly been an uptick in things from reckless driving to drinking to drug overdoses. There's a lot of anecdata from nurses, airline attendants, teachers, etc. about bad behavior being on the rise.

Maybe it's all just due to the stress of the ongoing pandemic. But, some of the articles below point out that these trends began before the pandemic.

Examples:

[1] All kinds of bad behavior is on the rise https://www.slowboring.com/p/all-kinds-of-bad-behavior-is-on...

[2] As America reopens, businesses — from airlines to arenas — see an uptick in bad behavior https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/11/as-america-reopens-businesse...

[3] America Is Falling Apart at the Seams https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/13/opinion/america-falling-a...

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#263
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thinking was that it created too much of a relationship of subservience rather than equals participating in commerce, to be compatible with American ideals of freedom. That's my feelings about tipping. The custom feels very classist. Depending on tips creates a social divide between service industries and their customers. I used to work for tips when I was growing up (~2010). My rate was about $15-20/hr which y…

>BUT, I had to force myself to be bubbly and make small talk or I'd make closer to $5-10/hr. The core service quality never changed--only how much I pleased/entertained my customers. I don't think this is something you can fault tips for. If anything it suggests that tips are working as intended, presumably without tips your employer would bake such expectations into your customer facing role anyway?

What you're talking about is scaling pay with customer satisfaction correct?

The issue with depending on customer satisfaction is that human beings only have agency over themselves. No matter how polite and courteous an employee is they cannot force a customer to be satisfied or that said satisfaction should result in a nice tip.

There are too many variables outside of your control such as the individual customers, shift schedule, volume of customers, the literal weather, political mood, etc. Some days I would go home with like $30 for the day's work despite behaving the same as my high earning days. You are not actually getting paid for your performance directly.

On average you may make more, but if you're in a low income position you are not equipped to ride out the variance. You are being exposed to so much uncertainty and raw humanity that it affects your mentality. It's much harder to shake off making $60 for an entire weekend of work because customers were grumpy when you only have $250 in your bank account and your car payment is due. As an equation it may look equitable, but that equation is not reality.

Businesses that support the tipping system are leaving their employees out in the proverbial wind. Instead business owners should assume the risk and actually manage their employees in an equitable fashion.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#264

It's a shame that the comments here are laser focused on the tipping parts of the article, and not the bigger picture items. The author outlines the struggles of getting service jobs filled in high CoL areas, the vicious cycle of turnover in these jobs, and all the commenters here want to discuss is the 2 paragraphs on tipping.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

The tipping situation is absolutely stupid, but hardly the only problem. And shitty entitled customers contribute to both issues here: they treat employees poorly, and they tip poorly. Businesses should probably just kick those customers out. If you can't behave like a decent person, the business shouldn't have to accept you as a customer.

Ultimately, of course, the market will correct itself. If these service jobs are terrible enough, nobody will do them anymore, and those customers will just have to cook their own food, or accept shitty overpriced service from the few companies willing to serve them, and willing to pay employees enough to deal with that shit.

But it will be a loss to all decent people who treat people with respect and want to pay well for good service. If you want to keep those, your only option is to kick the entitled assholes out. Or you'll have no employees left.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any chance they're trying to end the practice of tipping for the betterment of workers in the long run?

Protesting that workers aren't getting paid by withholding money from workers is a rationalization. In the best outcome, the customer would be paying exactly the same amount that they pay now, or more, it just wouldn't be separated or optional in the bill. You can tell whether people complain about tipping because of fairness or just because they want a discount by whether they also complain about mandatory, fixed pe…

> In the best outcome, the customer would be paying exactly the same amount that they pay now, or more, it just wouldn't be separated or optional in the bill.

I'd pay a premium just to avoid the distasteful master-servant relationship. It's insulting to assume that the customer would enjoy lording over others.

> just because they want a discount

It never crossed my mind that people do this. That's lousy.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#266
post #143

It's a shame that the comments here are laser focused on the tipping parts of the article, and not the bigger picture items. The author outlines the struggles of getting service jobs filled in high CoL areas, the vicious cycle of turnover in these jobs, and all the commenters here want to discuss is the 2 paragraphs on tipping.

Besides the author’s v points about the poor working conditions, I was struck by the points about transit costs. I am curious how much of the current labor situation in the US can be explained by the combination of 1) geographic wealth segregation —- richer consumers clustering together while generally poorer service workers have to live far away —- and 2) high gas prices / underdeveloped public transit. At some poin…

Basically cars are a huge relative cost for the working class. With our land use and transportation policies we have created a world where the costs of getting around are so high that it can trap you in poverty for life. Sorry for the paywall but this was the quickest article I could find on the topic: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-seven-year-auto-loan-americ...

If you calculate the total cost of owning car(s) during your lifetime and consider alternative use such as interest bearing savings account some estimates have shown it costs you approx $1M during your life.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#267
post #143

It's a shame that the comments here are laser focused on the tipping parts of the article, and not the bigger picture items. The author outlines the struggles of getting service jobs filled in high CoL areas, the vicious cycle of turnover in these jobs, and all the commenters here want to discuss is the 2 paragraphs on tipping.

Besides the author’s v points about the poor working conditions, I was struck by the points about transit costs. I am curious how much of the current labor situation in the US can be explained by the combination of 1) geographic wealth segregation —- richer consumers clustering together while generally poorer service workers have to live far away —- and 2) high gas prices / underdeveloped public transit. At some poin…

It's not even just lower class workers. Taking public transit to my FAANG job each day would be ~$20 total and be ~2hrs of commuting each day. That comes out to ~5k/year in commuting costs and about 65 workdays in hours wasted on trains and subways.

I can eat this cost but I'd feel extremely bad for someone who doesn't get paid as much as I do who had to do this kind of commuting (which MANY people do daily).

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#269
post #121
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting to think about the various ways tips are used: 1. User feedback: customer quality perception 2. Variable pricing: if customer can pay more, they do; customers without as much are not turned away 3. Untaxed earnings: tax authorities set a theoretical floor, but undocumented cash is difficult to substantiate Are there others?

Obfuscating the total cost when the consumer is making decisions—-the menu price is like the listed price in Google Flights, then taxes and tips are kind of like the baggage and seat fees on low cost airlines.

It's not obfuscation if it's entirely at the customer's discretion.

Google flights doesn't allow me to choose what percentage in fees I feel is appropriate for the service.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's actually going through the exercise of confirming his prior beliefs with "experience".

Too true! Yes he's now in the workforce, and it's such a shame that he NOW sees how the system works AFTER dictating/enforcing policy about it for an entire state. And there's an implication at the end of the article: tip more, customers. Policy is fine, it didn't cause this problem, customer behavior did. Perhaps he needs more confirmation through that experience.

I can definitely see why what would be your interpretation of the end of the article, but I don't think that's what the author was trying to convey. Earlier on, under the "The first and biggest is wages" header, the author implies that the policies around tipping are a big part of the problem. But the reality is that there have long been efforts to end the practice of tipping in the US, and they have all failed. Even if there were to be a successful push to change the culture around it, it would take years, and his argument is about what is causing labor issues now.

His argument is addressed to Austinites and others in similar areas who want to enjoy activities like watching a movie in a theater, and are now finding it harder than it used to be. In summary:

1. In order to survive, lots of theaters have pivoted to models where employees serve food and drinks to customers sitting in the theater.

2. Because they're serving food this way, they can get tips.

3. Because they can get tips, their wage is $2.13 an hour.

4. At the start of the pandemic, a lot of people took early retirement, opening up a lot of higher-end jobs that had been unavailable previously, since Americans are retiring later, and high-end job growth does not scale linearly with the population. This means low-wage workers now have more options, and it's switched from an employer-favored job market to an employee-favored market.

5. Low-wage earners cannot afford to live in Austin. Workers at this theater were either teenage children of wealthy Austinites, or commuting from less expensive areas. If the job gets too bad, the teenagers can afford to just quit, and the commuters can find jobs closer to home.

6. On one day given as an example, the entire tip amount was $3.80. Since tips are split evenly, every worker got $3.80 in tips for the day. Assuming they worked 8 hour days, that means the employees making a base salary of $2.13/hour got a total of $2.61/hour, or a total of $20.84 for the day, with no healthcare. That doesn't even cover the commute expenses for the day.

7. Because of all of the above, there are few people willing to work at a movie theater, and when a movie theater can't even keep a skeleton crew on staff to keep it running, it will have to close down.

Therefore, if you are an Austinite who wants to continue going to movie theaters, you have only one immediate way to keep them open: tip generously.

You might think the other option is to go to a movie theater that doesn't serve food and drink this way, and thus must pay the minimum wage of $7.25 an hour. And this is more reasonable, but a total day's pay for a worker there will still be $58/day without healthcare. We're at the point where it covers the commute, but barely. The IRS estimates that commutes cost $0.56/mile in oil/gas/maintenance costs. For someone with a 30 mile commute each way, that's $33.60 in commute costs, leaving them with $24.40 for a day's work.

Raising wages would help, and the author did point out that companies that have been making higher profits than ever could afford it. Universal healthcare, affordable housing in the city, and more robust public transit could help, but those aren't coming any time soon. The only hope of getting a pre-pandemic theater experience in the short term is to tip so well that employees are making significantly more than the minimum wage, this attracting enough workers to a theater.

Even then, however, the author's point about customers being entitled assholes might still drive employees away. You could take tipping out of the equation entirely and most of the author's argument would still be true.

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