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More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

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Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're thinking of 20 years ago. Most state schools are easily $20k for in state students once you add in the room and board. Then they try to get $50k from the out-of-staters. Top flight state schools like Michigan, Cal Berkeley and Cornell start at $75k+ for out-of-staters. Of course financial aid does enter the picture for many students.

No, I am not thinking of twenty years ago, I accurately stated the cost of tuition today, which generally does not include renting a place to live, on-campus or otherwise, or a meal plan.

Having a place to live and food to eat seems to me to be pretty important part of your education.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their universal concern is the cost. I have a senior in high school right now and although I think you're right - he's concerned about a potential quarter-million dollar tuition bill before this whole thing is over - he's also concerned about the whole selectivity of it all. From the outside looking in, you never know what's important and what's not. He has this feeling (and I'm not sure I can dispute it) that the…

The average debt for recent college grads is around $30-40k, quarter-million figures are outliers . Doctors may accumulate hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, but they easily make up for it in income.

About 7% (3.2 million) of federal student loan borrowers have over $100,000 in debt. Many of these are likely law (avg $145,500), pharmacy ($179,514), veterinary ($183,302), medical ($201,490), and dental ($292,169).

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#263

As the father of a 16-year old, I can say that the current generation of teenagers has heard a lot more about the issues of college debt than previous generations did. Partly because it's a lot higher, partly because even if newsmedia doesn't report on it, there are enough adults out there saddled with it that they just hear about it from a relative or friend. It used to be a no-brainer; you go to college if you can.…

not only the higher costs of education but my generation (millennial) learned that most degrees offered provide no real jobs that can contend with massive rise in cost for every significant thing that constitutes a decent life (housing, childcare etc...). Things look even bleaker for younger generations. The people who were born just in time to ride the swelling wave greatly benefited, if you were born when the wave is crashing down, unfortunately your life will be much much harder. We have this notion that everything we earn is based on merit but as i get older i see how much external context greatly influences the opportunities for merit as well as the outcomes.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average debt for recent college grads is around $30-40k, quarter-million figures are outliers . Doctors may accumulate hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, but they easily make up for it in income.

About 7% (3.2 million) of federal student loan borrowers have over $100,000 in debt. Many of these are likely law (avg $145,500), pharmacy ($179,514), veterinary ($183,302), medical ($201,490), and dental ($292,169).

right, and those jobs also tend to pay the most

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#265
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are student loans really such an issue? 85% of graduates have less than $50,000 in student loans. Paid off over 20 years, that’s really not much. https://www.rclco.com/wp-content/uploads/advisory-student-de... Additionally, those that have much higher loans are usually medical students who make $200,000/year at the entry level.

It's probably my Canadian experience talking, but this sentence: > 85% of graduates have less than $50,000 in student loans. Paid off over 20 years, that’s really not much. It is pretty terrifying that you manage to mentally justify going in debt for 20 years over your college education. I understand that given a good job it's easy to pay it back, but I never even borrowed even a tenth of that to complete my engineer…

But there is no magic you are paying higher taxes and that’s not for 20 years it’s forever

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#266
post #35
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SATs are the dumbest thing I've encountered in testing. In the US scoring high in some SATs will even qualify you for Mensa(gifted stamp). There are a handful of companies that own a huge margin of the standardized testing market(Pearson being one of them). From selling new test learning books every year, to the massive global standardized testing training market. Maybe the movements to eliminate SATs have a differen…

College admissions officers need some way to decide which applicants to accept. If they don't use SAT scores then what should they use instead? SAT scores have pretty good correlation with college academic success (although not perfect). High school grades can't really be compared between schools due to inconsistent grading standards. It used to be common for selective colleges to administer their own proprietary adm…

> If they don't use SAT scores then what should they use instead?

The answer depends on institution type.

Highly Selective Institutions: the admissions process is so hands-on and personal that I could believe they are able to get a good sense of each candidate without testing. E.g., I absolutely believe Harvard's admissions folks have the bandwidth to compare grades between high schools (not that they need to). And they do all sorts of stuff that gives you a better sense for the candidate than test scores (alumni interviews, essays, rec letters, delving into performance in highly competitive extra-curriculars, exceptional community service work, etc).

Non-Selective Institutions (let's say admissions >70%): Standardized tests are kind of a waste of time and money for all involved. These institutions are functionally admitting everyone who can manage to fill out the admissions paperwork and didn't systematically fail high school courses. It makes sense to make test scores optional, because there might be a few diamonds in the 30% "oof" pile who can pull off a decent SAT score to compensate for their D-average-no-honors-courses transcript. But requiring the SAT/ACT is silly when your admissions standards are extremely low.

Moderately Selective Institutions: I definitely see utility in these universities still using the SAT. But notice that this is actually a very small set of institutions. Perhaps 100-300 the US's 3K+ colleges fit in this category.

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FWIW, my opinion on SAT/ACT is somewhere in the middle.

I think standardized tests can be an excellent instrument when some form of assessment is necessary but more nuanced assessments of merit are cost-prohibitive. So for places like competitive state flagships, I think getting rid of testing and replacing it with an admissions process that works at least as good as testing is probably more expensive than it's worth.

However, I also think the pro-testing camp is often extremely hyperbolic. Testing is just one way of assessing merit. It has all sorts of flaws. Tests are a model, and all models are wrong.

As an aside, I'm not surprised that so many pro-SAT-the-sky-is-falling folks are mathematicians. That entire field is completely fucked up when in comes to testing. Math as a discipline is bad about intellectual peacocking in general... if you think Mensa is insufferable, spend an afternoon in a math dept. Math professors are exactly the last set of people in the world I would trust to have a healthy attitude toward the ability of testing to suss out real merit. They literally talk about their prelim exams the same way frat bros talk about hazing rituals. Systematic misuse of testing is the second biggest reason that people choose to do phds in math-adjacent fields instead of math. (The biggest reason is job prospects.)

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#267
post #199

I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive. Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred from bankruptcy. If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely skyrocket.

Doesn't it vary pretty wildly depending on the school? I also was very concerned about cost when going college, so I went with the cheapest route possible and also worked a job during college. I went to community college for 2 years while living at my parent's house, which was very cheap, it cost about $1000 per year for that. Then I transferred to a cheaper in-state school, in my case it was one in the California St…

If you go to a big name school the aid packages are usually much more generous, so total cost may even be below $22k (depending on your circumstances). Also, I’d push back on the idea that outcomes are comparable across schools. A degree from most Ivies has a measurable impact on future earnings, even controlling for parental income and academic aptitude.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#268

1. School loans are not dismissable in bankruptcy. This is only shared with criminal monetary punishments. 2. Interest is charged, which is abhorrent at any rate. Especially the 8%. 3. PPP "loans" to the tune of almost 1t$.. which were forgiven. Just run a few sham job ads for software engineers at 10$/hr and NobOdy wAnTS tO wOrk! 4. University doesn't really provide job skills. They allude to, but then say they dont…

I love how the solution is always to do tech. What about the other things?

CS and IT have very low barriers of entry.

Hardware is cheap, especially if going back a gen or 2. Software is free if open source'ing it. Piracy is also cheap too. Books and resources are plentiful, and predominantly cost time to experiment and do. And you can get hold of the developers pretty easy in open source, or dev with them.

Science has costy expensive lab equipment, knowledge is less shared and more guarded for their guild, people are harder to get to.

Engineering, depending on discipline, isn't even legal to teach yourself (professional engineer). Or it requires more expensive lab equipment in the ranges of 10's of thousands (think good oscilloscope, signal generator, rf anything). It's possible but really hard.

Math is possibly just as 'easy' as CS/IT. However, it's a super elite group. They have their own in-language that's near impenetrable for outsiders. And the people who excel are not at all easy to get in contact with.

Outside of STEM, there's other possible avenues. But given that Marx said that a capitalist society trends towards money-making activities in mathematics, science, and technology (STEM), the other avenues are probabilistically a bad bet. And yea, that sucks. But we also like to have enough money to live and enjoy life.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#269

There are a lot of people blaming federal loans for the inflation in college costs, however, private secondary school (high school) tuition has also grown at a comparable rate (maybe even faster). There are not, to my knowledge, federal loans for private secondary schools. Does anyone have an explanation for this? Edit: clarified that private secondary school = private high school. Of course federal student loans are…

When I was in school the loans were called stafford loans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stafford_Loan

I guess they've since changed to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Direct_Student_Loan_Pr...

They are very much for private schools. There's no real limit on them. They tend to cover the difference between what a family can pay and what the tuition is. They're generally low interest and you don't need to start paying them back until you're done with school.

Since the loans always cover the difference the impact of tuition costs going up isn't immediately felt

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>horrendously predatory loans backed by the government What's predatory about public loans. They all qualify for income based repayment, which means you'll never pay more than 10% of your disposable income (any income over 1.5x the federal poverty level). If you make below that amount, you'll never be required to pay back anything. And they are cancelled after 20 years. Theoretically you'd owe tax on cancelled debt,…

> What's predatory about public loans. It distorts prices and results in a suboptimal allocation of society’s resources, and results in people complaining about having a “degree” and having to sling coffee cups as their career.

That's not what the word predatory generally means in the context of loans.
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