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Opt Out of Cynicism

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Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#261

Post by avgcorrection »

toyg wrote: post #238
avgcorrection wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In all my decades of working close to the political leadership and the top level decision makers, I can’t remember once meeting someone who wasn’t working for what they believed to be a better tomorrow. The cynic in me thinks that people who tend to rub shoulders with The Powerful tend to (for the most part) see them as well-intentioned (although perhaps flawed) people rather than to be critical of them. Because it…

I think you attribute a causality where none necessarily exists. Some of "The Powerful" are indeed absolute bastards "always looking out for n.1", but a lot of them are sincere in their motives - it's just that they often happen to be ideologically misguided or forced into backfiring compromises by circumstances or greater powers. Arguably, the most visible ones are often very sincere - because otherwise they couldn'…

> but a lot of them are sincere in their motives

So you know them personally as well?

> Arguably, the most visible ones are often very sincere - because otherwise they couldn't sustain the drive necessary to reach certain heights.

Not in this very just world of ours, anyway.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#262

Post by NoGravitas »

> "I’m a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will." > Antonio Gramsci in a Letter from Prison (December 1929)

I think this is probably the correct position to take, and I try to hold on to it. I often fail to have optimism of the will, but I suppose pessimism of the intelligence is better than simple cynicism.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#263

Post by DarylZero »

netcan wrote: post #248
bambax wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many Greek well-to-dos in his place Well if he had zero money he couldn't retire to a quiet country life... That's why homeless people today do not choose to live in nice places in the countryside but instead sleep on the pavement in cities. It's much less pleasant but you starve less in the city. Also, maybe he wanted to tell other people they were fools, not just "wanting to be seen not giving a fuck". Sure, if y…

Sure, yes... Diogenes (the character) was a famous, upper class dude. Lifelong poverty wasn't a trap he couldn't escape. Also I didn't mean to be too harsh. The " can't wait to tell you how little I care " trope is one we can't escape even in modern dissident youth culture. Hippies, punk, goth, emo... every generation reinvents it and it's artistically/culturally rich ground. That said, the Diogenes character definit…

Why would Marilyn Manson care what normies think?

This "care what you think" phrasing I think is really deceptive. Because the active issue is whether you conform to group norms or refuse to do so.

If someone refuses to conform to a group, then demonstrably they don't care enough about the benefits of group inclusion to comply with the group demands.

If someone quits their job, they may in _some_ sense "care what the boss thinks," but there is a much more important sense in which they don't (while those who do not quit, do).

I guess people may be "loud" about their refusal, in various ways, because they don't want a refusal to conform to be mistaken for an inability to perform. Much like the person who is quitting does not want to be perceived as having been fired. Again, that is a very different kind of concern than the person who is trying to keep their job.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#264

Post by tiagomfcorreia »

kashyapc wrote: post #192

The inimitable Hans Rosling[1] used to call himself a "possibilist": People often call me an optimist, because I show them the enormous progress they didn't know about. That makes me angry. I'm not an optimist. That makes me sound naive. I'm a very serious “possibilist”. That's something I made up. It means someone who neither hopes without reason, nor fears without reason, someone who constantly resists the overdram…

Sir, I really liked this one. Gonna read the book for certain.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#265

Post by goodpoint »

louhike wrote: post #118

Isn’t it cynicism (or idealism) just a survival strategy which happens because of your experiences? I know I tend to be more cynical than most of my peers but I always attributed that to growing up in poverty unlike them. Sometimes it seems a lot of people think others can apply their way of thinking or seeing the world and it will make their life instantly better. But I don’t think it can happen if they don’t live i…

> Isn’t it cynicism (or idealism) just a survival strategy which happens because of your experiences?

Not at all. You are confusing coping mechanisms with (healthy) survival strategies.

In many societies the absence of empathy and mutual aid is one of the biggest contributors to unhappiness.

And it's not correlated with poverty.

(I'm not using the word "cynicism" because is very poorly defined and constantly misused in this thread.)

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#266

Post by KarlKemp »

Barrin92 wrote: post #68

I'm pretty sure I fall into the definition of a cynic given in the piece "according to cynics, the world operates in a certain way, the elites are always the same, and will always be the same. The cynics think we are always playing the same game that has always been played. For example, a cynic may think that media’s only purpose is to sells your attention to advertisers - like I did here. And often they might be rig…

If you continuously call all politicians equally corrupt, they have no incentive not to be. You and the people you influence will have no justification based in reality for the decisions you get to make, like voting. That’s the end of democracy.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#267

Post by NoGravitas »

DeathArrow wrote: post #133
moksly wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a really sad outlook to me. After decades in Enterprise IT, many in the public sector of Scandinavia you’d probably expect me to be a cynic, and if you go through my post history you’ll see very recent examples of what looks like it, but I’m actually always rather optimistic. The healthy survival strategy in a world of shit isn’t to give up, it’s to fight on and hope for the best. It’s to come to the conclusi…

>The healthy survival strategy in a world of shit isn’t to give up, it’s to fight on and hope for the best. The best survival strategy is to fight to improve your situation, not fight to change the world. >The moment you become a cynic is the moment you lose your connection and with it, your ability to impact things. Because a manager who has the wrong view of your corporate culture, isn’t going to change unless you…

> The best survival strategy is to fight to improve your situation, not fight to change the world.

Individually, this is probably so. Collectively, it leads to the world becoming more and more shitty, year after year. It's a trap, and no one has figured out a way out.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#268

Post by goodpoint »

circlefavshape wrote: post #193
iamacyborg wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> everyone is working for a better world My inner cynic is howling at this statement.

A good friend of mine is a very senior civil servant in Ireland, and he says similar - most politicians are smart people sincerely trying to make the world a better place. I believe him. What's the alternative? Believing that all the world's problems would be fixed if only someone good-hearted would attempt to solve them?

> Believing that all the world's problems would be fixed if only someone good-hearted would attempt to solve them?

That's a very cynical take.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#270

Post by FrankyHollywood »

kashyapc wrote: post #192

The inimitable Hans Rosling[1] used to call himself a "possibilist": People often call me an optimist, because I show them the enormous progress they didn't know about. That makes me angry. I'm not an optimist. That makes me sound naive. I'm a very serious “possibilist”. That's something I made up. It means someone who neither hopes without reason, nor fears without reason, someone who constantly resists the overdram…

I like the incubator example. It is easy to jump to (extreme) conclusions, and not see what's really there.

Reminds me of https://www.logicalfallacies.org/

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