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PHP is worth learning and using

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Re: PHP is worth learning and using

#261

Post by corobo »

2-718-281-828 wrote: post #212
corobo wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's that policy working out for you? If I did that I'd have missed a hell of a lot of cool stuff in life haha

good, I'd say. I'm not waiting half an hour in a queue in front of a hipster ice cream parlor. when I go into nature I have a good chance of actually finding some peace b/c I do not go where Instagrammers take their selfies. I'm not torturing my soul on TikTok. I use choose technologies conservatively instead of by hype cycle. List goes on.

Sounds like you've got one of those "I just sorta hate everything" anti-personalities haha

Have a goodun

Re: PHP is worth learning and using

#262

Post by beberlei »

toolslive wrote: post #251
toolslive wrote: post #241

| php is fast. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... it's faster than python, but my grandma is too and she died in 1993. However, function calls are extremely slow. If you would bench something like a naieve fibonacci implementation (or ackermann's function) you would be surprised.

(naieve fibonacci) like this: just did some measurements on my laptop: | Language | n | time(s) | |----------------------+----+---------| | php (7.4.25) | 42 | 422.0 | | python3 | 42 | 90.0 | | haskell (ghc -O3) | 42 | 13.8 | | f# | 42 | 5.6 | | ts | 42 | 2.8 | | ocaml (ocamlopt -O3) | 42 | 0.98 | | C (gcc -O3) | 42 | 0.66 | (edit: added php version in table. )

naieve and micro benchmarks is not meaningful in 95% of cases. Did you run on the CLI with -dopcache.enable_cli=1 for example?

Re: PHP is worth learning and using

#263

Post by marcus_cemes »

echelon wrote: post #119
brandon272 wrote: post #14

I have used PHP for years. Like it. Have accomplished some nice things with it. Think it's evolved nicely in recent years. Feel it's a great tool for particular problems. Will continue to use it. Will always be open to alternatives. Will never understand why some people find that so offensive and will tell you that you mustn't use it or imply that you are ignorant or stupid for using it.

Here's a choose your own adventure for people new to the field. Pick something you want to build, then see which languages are the best suited. If you want to build several things, see which languages are the most recurring and versatile: - Web frontend: Javascript/TypeScript - Web backend: Javascript/TypeScript, Python - Performant backend (where you manage threads and queues): Go, Java, Rust - Machine learning: Pyt…

Shoutout to Elixir/Phoenix for a (performant) backend.

Re: PHP is worth learning and using

#264

Post by lessname »

azophy_2 wrote: post #74
yegle wrote: post #70

For me the main turndown of using PHP is when I need to host the PHP website, php-fpm and Apache+mod_php seem to be the only two options. (FastCGI doesn't even have a proper specification).

swoole is a pretty interesting alternative as it allows asynchronous programming in PHP. roadrunner is a PHP server developed using golang, utilizing goroutines for high performance. both used by Laravel Octane, providing very easy integration with the framework. Other than that, php-fpm & FastCGI allows integration with many interestin webserver including Nginx, Caddy, Lighttpd, etc.

I would be a little bit careful while using swoole. They added some code that loaded code from a third party server [1] (a core developer who seems to be located in china). Even though it seems like they removed it doesn't bring a good feeling. It seems like there were also some disagreements with a contributor who maintained the website of swoole and he forked it [2]: https://github.com/openswoole/swoole-src

[1] https://github.com/swoole/swoole-src/issues/4434 [2] https://news-web.php.net/php.pecl.dev/17446

Re: PHP is worth learning and using

#265

Post by mikl »

philliphaydon wrote: post #82
mikl wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I’m not trying to invent scientific classifications here, but the common reason to choose one of said languages is to use them with the Microsoft/Apple/Android ecosystems, respectively.

Ok, I'm just trying to understand. Not trying to make you create a scientific classiciation :D I just disagree as a .NET developer.

I could be mistaken, but I can’t remember last time I heard of a C# project that wasn’t either targetting Windows as a platform (whether server or desktop) or running against some other Microsoft-thing like Xamarin.

In the early days of Mono, there were some attempts at using C# outside Microsoft circles, like building Gnome-apps with GTK#, but most of those projects have faded away.

Re: PHP is worth learning and using

#266

Post by lessname »

ammmir wrote: post #163

Most arguments against PHP miss the point. You know why you should use PHP? Because it's fun and you can get something running much quicker than figuring out the Elixir, Ruby, Rust, whatever ecosystem and paradigm. Maybe PHP is not so good at WebSockets or async worker threads, but most projects don't need that. There's no shame in doing long polling, users can't tell the difference anyway! PHP shines when you're try…

There are other solutions to long polling now. You can use Pusher, ReactPHP or Amp (https://amphp.org/) to use websockets with php instead.

Re: PHP is worth learning and using

#267

Post by numlock86 »

kkarpkkarp wrote: post #135
MattGaiser wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good jobs though? Lots of PHP jobs in Canada, but the salary is nearly universally always laughably low.

IDK what is a good salary in US/Canada, I live in European Union. My salary as WordPress developer is more than 4,5k USD/month and I see job offers with 8k USD as well (still for WP developers, this is my specialization and I know this field the most; I expect for better recognized PHP fields like modern frameworks like Laravel it could be more) And yes, 4,5k USD/month is massively good salary for Europe. On the othe…

Where in the EU are good (web) devs willing to work for less than 8k USD, considering the current work market situation? I am in urgent need of those. :^)

Re: PHP is worth learning and using

#268

Post by johnnycerberus »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #122

PHP is perfectly fine, and all of the "better languages" are only better in an academic sense. But you can't really use PHP. It's too uncool. If you use PHP in 2021, you had better have a really good understanding with your manager, because your manager may read that PHP is "bad" or "a fractal of bad design" and start to question your competence.

I think PHP gets all the clapping when in fact the statistic that the majority of the Internet uses it to power its services is misleading. Let's face it, Wordpress is a great project, it could have been written in Perl and it would still have had the perks of being Wordpress. When people use it, they don't know what happens behind, I think WP is the perfect example of what a good extensible product is and how it can build an insane ecosystem around it. The plugin architecture is there since 2004, it was and still is very ergonomic. Though Wordpress was not unique in that time, phpBB, vBulletin should be mentioned.

Re: PHP is worth learning and using

#269

Post by idoubtit »

beberlei wrote: post #262
toolslive wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(naieve fibonacci) like this: just did some measurements on my laptop: | Language | n | time(s) | |----------------------+----+---------| | php (7.4.25) | 42 | 422.0 | | python3 | 42 | 90.0 | | haskell (ghc -O3) | 42 | 13.8 | | f# | 42 | 5.6 | | ts | 42 | 2.8 | | ocaml (ocamlopt -O3) | 42 | 0.98 | | C (gcc -O3) | 42 | 0.66 | (edit: added php version in table. )

naieve and micro benchmarks is not meaningful in 95% of cases. Did you run on the CLI with -dopcache.enable_cli=1 for example?

Opcache avoids the compilation step. It's not relevant in this case (compilation ~0.01s out of ~400s).

Microbenchmarks are meaningful as long as one doesn't read too much from them. This benchmark shows that PHP seems to have a problem with recurrent calls.

Re: PHP is worth learning and using

#270

Post by toolslive »

toolslive wrote: post #251
toolslive wrote: post #241

| php is fast. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... it's faster than python, but my grandma is too and she died in 1993. However, function calls are extremely slow. If you would bench something like a naieve fibonacci implementation (or ackermann's function) you would be surprised.

(naieve fibonacci) like this: just did some measurements on my laptop: | Language | n | time(s) | |----------------------+----+---------| | php (7.4.25) | 42 | 422.0 | | python3 | 42 | 90.0 | | haskell (ghc -O3) | 42 | 13.8 | | f# | 42 | 5.6 | | ts | 42 | 2.8 | | ocaml (ocamlopt -O3) | 42 | 0.98 | | C (gcc -O3) | 42 | 0.66 | (edit: added php version in table. )

that was PHP 7.4.25

Yes this is a microbenchmark. Yes, I know binet's formula... Yes it's weird function calls are so slow in php.

with php 8.0 (jit enabled) you get something like 120s (for n= 42)

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