Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Never update anything

blog.kronis.dev

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 288 posts

Re: Never update anything

#261

Post by forgotmypw17 »

habeebtc wrote: post #144
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Force is a strong word, since Windows provides ways to opt-out of feature upgrades. I dunno, I've heard multiple reports of people leaving their machine alone and coming back to it having upgraded and rebooted into a new version, sometimes into an unrecoverable blue screen. How would they have opted out of that?

Went through that with Win7 a few times. Eventually found a way to disable. In this case, the forced W11 upgrade was forced on me by my company via push.

Whenever there's a way to disable it, it's usually discovered after the fact, and then next month a new setting is introduced which must also be disabled.

Fool me once, etc.

Re: Never update anything

#262

Post by forgotmypw17 »

RedShift1 wrote: post #215
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure where the supposed typo is, I started with 3.11, then used 95, NT4, 98, 2k, and around XP/Vista is where I realized it's time to move on because of the increasing upgrade nags and the UI being changed without my consent... I still stuck around until Windows 7 because I had just grown so into it, was very comfortable with keyboard controls, etc. Then a computer I knew upgraded itself to Windows 8 without bein…

There was never any free and forced upgrade to Windows 8, I assume you mean Windows 10?

You may be right, perhaps it was Windows 8 to Windows 10. But even in the days of XP, upgrade nags were already in effect, and one keypress or mouse click at the wrong time (when the popup appeared) could send you down that road. Unless you already anticipated it ahead of time (from past experiences) and went through the settings and disabled automatic update checking.

The overall intent and attitude matters more to me than the details, and the general intent of Microsoft (and Apple, and Gnome, and Ubuntu, and many others) seems to be "we know how your desktop should look and operate better than you do."

This is completely the opposite of what I want, which is to have a workstation which is configured to facilitate my work, where nothing changes without my explicit REQUEST.

Re: Never update anything

#263

Post by forgotmypw17 »

Jenda_ wrote: post #255
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #32

I literally never update anything unless it is not working. Quite happy here with Firefox 66.x on Ubuntu LXDE 14.x, which is what happened to come with this particular device. I have an iPad running iOS 8.x, which I'm also happy with, especially when I do testing on the clusterfucks that are later iOS and Firefox releases. Browsing a handful of reputable text-based websites from behind a NAT, I don't see the problem.…

How do you make sure these are the reputable websites and not some interceptor, when using plaintext protocol?

I'm lucky/blessed/fortunate enough to live in a place where it is unlikely and use reputable ISPs.

Re: Never update anything

#264

Post by forgotmypw17 »

kaba0 wrote: post #257
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any actual arguments to back up your opinion?

Copying my previous answer to a similarly bad idea: “ Browsers run untrusted code 0-24, which get JIT compiled to machine code through a very complex and bug-prone process. Add to that that desktop OSs are quite lacking when it comes to sandboxes, so even with browser sandboxes, the potential for serious damage is quire big. So, staying ahead of bugs is a must.”

It's impossible to stay ahead of the bugs, because they appear ahead of the patches, and there are undoubtedly many unpatched bugs out there.

But if I only visit sites where this is unlikely (and don't allow JavaScript, which you seem to have missed) I am much safer than when browsing willy-nilly with the latest patches.

Re: Never update anything

#265

Post by forgotmypw17 »

lwouis wrote: post #180
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #32

I literally never update anything unless it is not working. Quite happy here with Firefox 66.x on Ubuntu LXDE 14.x, which is what happened to come with this particular device. I have an iPad running iOS 8.x, which I'm also happy with, especially when I do testing on the clusterfucks that are later iOS and Firefox releases. Browsing a handful of reputable text-based websites from behind a NAT, I don't see the problem.…

I really appreciate people like you reminding most everyone that new != better. I live in Japan which people usually mock for still using fax machines, or keeping "the old ways" in many aspect of society. There are important positive things that people don't realize are lost as we "modernize" society. For example, these days the TV spies on my usage and sends that data back to the maker company; they will then sell i…

>For example, these days the TV spies on my usage and sends that data back to the maker company; they will then sell it to advertisers. Every update is aggressively pushed to me, and after i accept it, i notice more ads (rebranded "you may enjoy" or "now trending") on the home screen.

Have you considered getting rid of that TV and TV in general?

Re: Never update anything

#266

Post by forgotmypw17 »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #226
saghm wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mac and Linux do the same thing The earlier responses in the thread were talking about forced upgrades. I'm not sure about MacOS since I don't use it much, but most Linux distros do not forcibly apply upgrades like Windows does; you can continue to use old packages and even reboot the machine indefinitely. Sure, you might not get security fixes or keep unrelated packages up to date beyond a certain point, but that'…

> I'm not sure about MacOS since I don't use it much, but most Linux distros do not forcibly apply upgrades like Windows does; Eh, not very accurate in my opinion. If you want to use the latest software you are very much forced to upgrade Linux because they have no concept of separating the platform from the applications that run on it. Either everything is bleeding edge or nothing is. Or you compile things from sour…

I'm not sure who you mean by "they", but there's a lot of difference between distros, and many different ways to put the pieces together (or leave them out)

Compiling from source is the most reliable way to run the latest and greatest version of a particular application that I've found to date, leaving out all the middlemen like package mantainers, whose competence I may or may not trust.

And generally speaking, I'd trust a several-decades-old technique much more than something just released.

As far as Windows software goes, I've found Wine to be a much more reliable platform for old Windows applications than Windows 7 or 10, although there's nothing better than emulated Windows 9x for running programs of that era.

(I make "any browser" websites, so running 1995+ software is something I do on the regular.)

Re: Never update anything

#267

Post by forgotmypw17 »

Jach wrote: post #156
jart wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I googled for some screenshots and MATE doesn't look like GNOME 2 to me. See https://www.server-world.info/en/note?os=CentOS_5&p=x&f=1 and https://int3ractive.com/blog/2019/things-to-do-after-install... I found some screenshots of MATE desktops from ten years ago. Those did look like GNOME2. However it appears that since then MATE chosen to embrace a new identity too.

Look instead at MATE's homepage: https://mate-desktop.org/ Or their screenshots. For Ubuntu MATE, select "Traditional" in your link's step 1. You can also look at the final screenshot of https://learnubuntumate.weebly.com/traditional-menu.html Sure, MATE has evolved to give more options, and distros seem to like defaulting its look to something non-traditional, but the traditional look is still very GNOME2 and very m…

TBH, both Ubuntu and Gnome have completely lost my trust as far as making stable and predictable environments.

The Mac-like global menubar which they've grafted on without being able to adopt the applications is an atrocity IMO.

I consider Windows 95 / NT4 / 2000 to be "peak desktop GUI" and use distros which allow me to emulate that look, feel, and behavior. I use it until it fails to deliver that experience and then keep trying other distros until I find another one who has not yet rotted out.

So far, I have only had to switch distros a handful of times.

Re: Never update anything

#268

Post by kouteiheika »

jart wrote: post #154
kouteiheika wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linux do the same thing. [..] Then there's Linux where each GUI update is a radical break with tradition that continually reinvents its own identity. If you're using a "mainstream" desktop environment (e.g. GNOME), then yeah, but that's not universally true. I've been using exactly the same desktop environment for something like ~12 years; I love Linux because if you set it up right it's essentially zero maintenanc…

The forced changes to the init system and desktop gui are far more radical than anything Microsoft or Apple ever did. The init system change was also due to the GUI people. GNOME told everyone they must adopt SystemD or else you can't use GNOME anymore. It made people so unhappy there were forks, protests, and even suicides. If a system administrator woke up from a 15 year coma, they would have no clue how to use any…

I really don't understand the systemd hate. It's fine. It works. I never had any problems with it, neither on my desktop, nor on the servers I maintain. People I personally know also don't have any problems with it.

> It made people so unhappy there were forks, protests, and even suicides.

...a suicide over a different init system? Seriously?

Re: Never update anything

#269

Post by jart »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #267
Jach wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look instead at MATE's homepage: https://mate-desktop.org/ Or their screenshots. For Ubuntu MATE, select "Traditional" in your link's step 1. You can also look at the final screenshot of https://learnubuntumate.weebly.com/traditional-menu.html Sure, MATE has evolved to give more options, and distros seem to like defaulting its look to something non-traditional, but the traditional look is still very GNOME2 and very m…

TBH, both Ubuntu and Gnome have completely lost my trust as far as making stable and predictable environments. The Mac-like global menubar which they've grafted on without being able to adopt the applications is an atrocity IMO. I consider Windows 95 / NT4 / 2000 to be "peak desktop GUI" and use distros which allow me to emulate that look, feel, and behavior. I use it until it fails to deliver that experience and the…

Windows 2000 was a thing of beauty. It was Peak Gates. What do you think of SerenityOS? It's written by this guy from Apple who ended up leaving his job so he could do the same thing to Windows 2000 that Steve Jobs did to Mac OS 9. Now that's a dangerous idea.

Re: Never update anything

#270

Post by jart »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #226
saghm wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mac and Linux do the same thing The earlier responses in the thread were talking about forced upgrades. I'm not sure about MacOS since I don't use it much, but most Linux distros do not forcibly apply upgrades like Windows does; you can continue to use old packages and even reboot the machine indefinitely. Sure, you might not get security fixes or keep unrelated packages up to date beyond a certain point, but that'…

> I'm not sure about MacOS since I don't use it much, but most Linux distros do not forcibly apply upgrades like Windows does; Eh, not very accurate in my opinion. If you want to use the latest software you are very much forced to upgrade Linux because they have no concept of separating the platform from the applications that run on it. Either everything is bleeding edge or nothing is. Or you compile things from sour…

Karmic Koala is within the support vector of Actually Portable Executable. Since if you can get it to run on that, it'll most likely run on all the other distros too. Plus these binaries run on Windows 7, Mac, and BSDs too. They even run without an operating system. No need for recompilation. No virtual machine required. They aren't bloated either since the binary footprint starts at 12kb. See https://justine.lol/ape.html and https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan Best part is you can still use the compiler that comes with your Linux. All it does is reconfigures the compiler so that, rather than producing a binary that can only run on one version of one distro of one operating system, your program magically becomes capable of running on all of them.
Post reply on HN