I'm worried that the provided information could be incorrect. For example, that user could have messages waiting to be delivered to himself. In that case, I think signal doesn't know the senders but should still disclose the number of those messages and their size. Signal erases that kind of information but I'm pretty sure that user must have had some messages delivered to them while signal was processing the subpoen…
Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California
261–270 of 618 posts
Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California
#262Beautiful. That's how you do it. I actually believe that law enforcement has the legal right to subpoena information, with a judge's consent, while investigating criminal activity. This is exactly the solution to that problem. These platforms should want to know as little about you as possible.
Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California
#263While I applaud Signal's response I expect this entire event (subpoena and response) will be provided as one of the exhibits to congress by the Department of Justice to justify their request that it be unlawful to provide such services. The DoJ will say, "See, here is this horrible crime we are investigating and because this company chose to make it impossible for law enforcement, with a warrant and a subpoena to get…
"Could you not put an officer out to surveille them?",
Your argument kind of falls on itself there --> We can surveil them in person, but not digitally?
Why?
I think the tech crowd has this wrong.
The issue - as you have indicated - is not 'By What Means To Surveil'.
The issues are: Legitimacy, Proportionality, Oversight.
Messages, tech, sign language, in person, phones or messaging pigeons, the issue remains the same:
Is there a legitimate reason for access?
Is the intervention proportional to the probability of cause, the ostensible crime, the risk to other citizens and the public good?
Is there authoritative Judicial oversight of the surveillance, and, is there sufficient Congressional oversight of the legality of the program?
Those are the questions.
Should police be able to tap Signal (or anything else) for data on anyone they want, for whatever they want, willy nilly without a Warrant or oversight?
Definitely not.
Should Apple be scanning content for crimes?
Probably not, but that's slightly more complicated.
Should the police be able to access the Signal messages of someone they apprehended at a murder scene wherein other suspects fled the scene, and are therefore likely the suspects accomplices?
Likely yes. Or at lest, most people would agree with it both in the pragmatic sense, and also the Constitutional sense.
Should the FBI be able to, with special permission of a Federal Judge, watch all cell tower transactions in 5x5 mile grid grid, while there's a literal manhunt on for literal terrorists during a literal state of emergency?
Probably yes again, it's hard because the proportionality and tactics are rare and unique.
The technology is a secondary issue.
Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California
#264Earlier quoted context omitted.
I mean I do. EFF, Wikimedia, ACLU (Only EFF is really for this particular issue though)
I stopped supporting the ACLU when they started doing this: Fighting against due process: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/see-you-court-aclu-sues... claiming there's no men: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1196877415810813955 and this: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1199725066302308354 Telling families to discuss pronouns: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1250795126584217602 and this: https://twitter.com/ACLU/st…
I think there's an argument to be made for the ACLU becoming increasingly performative, with catchy Twitter slogans edging out the real work, but this isn't it.
Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
You’re attacking a straw man. I never proposed anything other than recognizing the cost of encryption. And if you are to honestly do so, then you also need to recognize things happen now digitally that would have been in person before, which ends up leaving clues like witnesses and DNA. The world isn’t black and white.
>You’re attacking a straw man. I never proposed anything other than recognizing the cost of encryption. I assume you're referring to this sentence in my comment: What you seem to be advocating is that everyone's privacy should be forfeited so police can get information without doing, you know, police work. Note that I said seem . Which, in this context, means that's what I understood you to be saying. Thank you for c…
Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would you name some please? Do you mean like ACLU (BCCLA in Canada)
The ACLU is not what it once was. I will not donate to them. Even the EFF is growing questionable. I would definitely be curious what recommendations people have.
Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Spying programs and laws will only worsen unless people really voice their concerns and elect the right people. I very much suspect that who is elected has nearly zero effect on spying programs.
This is definitely not true. Dianne Feinstein for instance has been instrumental in almost all of these efforts. As a senator from California, she could be replaced with someone nearly politically identical that didn't support government surveillance.
Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California
#268Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you use a passcode, they police cannot force you to unlock your phone: https://www.lawtechnologytoday.org/2019/08/can-police-force-...
>If you use a passcode, they police cannot force you to unlock your phone: And that's a good thing.
Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California
#270While I applaud Signal's response I expect this entire event (subpoena and response) will be provided as one of the exhibits to congress by the Department of Justice to justify their request that it be unlawful to provide such services. The DoJ will say, "See, here is this horrible crime we are investigating and because this company chose to make it impossible for law enforcement, with a warrant and a subpoena to get…
Make it fully decentralized with economic incentives for node operators.
some projects trying to do this now are Status, Session, Sylo