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After DeepMind’s cofounder was placed on leave for bullying, Google promoted him

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Re: After DeepMind’s cofounder was placed on leave for bullying, Google promoted him

#261

Post by PragmaticPulp »

zz865 wrote: post #229
omarhaneef wrote: post #106

Here is an observation, make of it what you will: These are the environments I’ve been in where it has been very common for people to scream at each other, both loudly and often: - banking - venture - consulting These are the environments where I have not seen this behavior: - academia - tech - an operating company I’ll tell you what makes it tolerable and normal versus abusive: if a subordinate is “allowed” to yell…

Honestly I wish there was more screaming and yelling. I'm tired of fake smiles and passive aggressive behavior. If you dont like what I'm doing please tell me. I'm up for a proper debate. One of the best places I worked at occasionally one guy would completely throw a tantrum - but then at the end of the day would have a few beers with the guy he was arguing with and make up. People just learned how he was. Ideally t…

There are more options than the extremes of passive aggressive or screaming at people.

Plenty of people have learned the art of being professional in the workplace without yelling or holding back for the sake of being polite. It’s actually very refreshing to work at companies where management isn’t afraid to tell people they’re coming up short of expectations but can do so with tact but without yelling.

Re: After DeepMind’s cofounder was placed on leave for bullying, Google promoted him

#262

Post by thereare5lights »

torstenvl wrote: post #225
neolog wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of practices that aren't crimes but which should nevertheless be discouraged within organizations.

I don't agree in this context. The terms "misconduct" and "bullying" are far too close to allegations of crimes. Our society is trending toward disregard of the presumption of innocence, and that is far more of a societal problem than having an aggressive and ambitious team leader who cares more about results than coddling. If he committed a crime, the evidence should be presented. If he did not, then tarring him wit…

> what, exactly, does bullying constitute if it doesn't also constitute an assault or criminal harassment?

For this statement to be true, you would have to be asserting that all children that do this are also guilty of criminal harassment or assault.

This is such a clearly absurd position that asserting it in the first place demonstrates an absolute lack of understanding of what bullying is. I'd even go so far as to say that it is a defense of wielding power in socially negative way that frays relationships and degrades social environments.

Re: After DeepMind’s cofounder was placed on leave for bullying, Google promoted him

#263

Post by didibus »

password321 wrote: post #191
nicoburns wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a lot of people drop out of Oxford because it's an intense high-pressure environment. It may not have been out of choice, even if he's portraying it that way

This comment managed to blow my mind. Are we really trying to say the cofounder of DEEPMIND is too stupid / incompetent to have graduated from Oxford and came up with a charity as a front for it?

That's absolutely possible, I don't know why people think entrepreneurship requires a high level of intellect, it doesn't really.

Not to say this guy is stupid, I just don't see why you'd associate founding a company with intellect?

Re: After DeepMind’s cofounder was placed on leave for bullying, Google promoted him

#264

Post by thereare5lights »

Wow, I didn't expect this to blow up nor did I expect so many people to come out so vehemently in defense of someone wielding power in such a way as to negatively affect people.

It's really illuminating to see what kind of behaviors people take the effort to defend and support. I wish I could say I was surprised but I've seen people speak out in favor of hurting other people far too often.

Re: After DeepMind’s cofounder was placed on leave for bullying, Google promoted him

#265

Post by torstenvl »

thereare5lights wrote: post #262
torstenvl wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree in this context. The terms "misconduct" and "bullying" are far too close to allegations of crimes. Our society is trending toward disregard of the presumption of innocence, and that is far more of a societal problem than having an aggressive and ambitious team leader who cares more about results than coddling. If he committed a crime, the evidence should be presented. If he did not, then tarring him wit…

> what, exactly, does bullying constitute if it doesn't also constitute an assault or criminal harassment? For this statement to be true, you would have to be asserting that all children that do this are also guilty of criminal harassment or assault. This is such a clearly absurd position that asserting it in the first place demonstrates an absolute lack of understanding of what bullying is. I'd even go so far as to…

You make a personal attack and then suggest that I'm complicit in degrading social environments. Fascinating. ~_^

While I find your personal attack on me interesting from a sociological standpoint, would you mind answering the question?

Re: After DeepMind’s cofounder was placed on leave for bullying, Google promoted him

#266

Post by rsynnott »

joebob42 wrote: post #249
klyrs wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a fun one: > "Employees said Suleyman encouraged them to use private chat groups on Signal and Telegram for work conversations, some of which were set up to automatically delete messages after a set period. Employees were also on occasion asked to delete messages from their phones, a former employee said. They were also told to notify the group once they had done so." The burden of proof is on the claimant, su…

Google makes all employees do this, for whatever it's worth. I think this may just be kinda standard for corporate stuff. (Not telegram, but the self destructing messages)

I think the odd bit here is the encouragement to use messaging systems out of the employer's control for work stuff.

Re: After DeepMind’s cofounder was placed on leave for bullying, Google promoted him

#267

Post by thereare5lights »

ip26 wrote: post #250
dimitrios1 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same reason people defend Bill Gates or Bezos, or any other rich or powerful person for that matter. People want what they have, and they feel if they attack them, recognize their immorality or destitute nature of their souls they are in a sense attacking their future self image, and it feels inconvenient. Especially where where there are a lot of valley Elizabeth Holmes types on here that fancy they are pot…

Alternate theory: We want to believe the rich and powerful deserve to be rich and powerful. If they didn't deserve it, that would imply 1) the system is not fair and 2) we can't ever get what they have even if we become deserving. Thus, we defend their credibility & merits so that we can go on believing in the meritocracy.

The first path are people that initially tilt towards morally good but eventually tilt towards morally bad as they accumulate more and more wealth and power. The people that the maxim "power corrupt" was made for.

Your path describe the naive people that would rather believe that the world is a meritocracy rather than a free for all with a thin veneer of meritocracy and will defend that facade until they are personally affected.

There is yet another path which is people that figure out the game and embrace it and say that anyone that doesn't play the game gets what's coming to them. I'd say that this guy is probably in this camp.

Re: After DeepMind’s cofounder was placed on leave for bullying, Google promoted him

#268

Post by thereare5lights »

torstenvl wrote: post #265
thereare5lights wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what, exactly, does bullying constitute if it doesn't also constitute an assault or criminal harassment? For this statement to be true, you would have to be asserting that all children that do this are also guilty of criminal harassment or assault. This is such a clearly absurd position that asserting it in the first place demonstrates an absolute lack of understanding of what bullying is. I'd even go so far as to…

You make a personal attack and then suggest that I'm complicit in degrading social environments. Fascinating. ~_^ While I find your personal attack on me interesting from a sociological standpoint, would you mind answering the question?

On the contrary. At no point did I make a comment on your character or any other aspect of you personally. The only comments I made were specific towards your question and its implications.

You can call it a personal attack if you wish. That doesn't make it true.

> would you mind answering the question?

I won't because as I pointed out already, your question comes from a flawed premise.

Re: After DeepMind’s cofounder was placed on leave for bullying, Google promoted him

#269

Post by rsynnott »

truetraveller wrote: post #129
oytis wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a total mystery to me why do people feel the urge to defend him. I kind of understand this in the case of technically brilliant but socially awkward people, but this guy seems to have done nothing but management in his life. And if this is how he's doing management then I don't understand why he's tolerated at all.

We're defending him because the accusations against him are egregiously exaggerated, and without proof. I'm against screaming, but infrequent/involuntary screaming by a very senior exec does happen, and in my opinion, cannot be called abusive. In fact, I would be upset if I had a sheep for an exec. I want a exec who is kind, and who can lead and is firm. Not screaming, but almost there.

> but infrequent/involuntary screaming by a very senior exec does happen

Eh, sorry, no. I mean, maybe if you drop a book on their foot or something, but if it's just screaming at employees as part of their work, then they should probably be looking for a less demanding job.

Re: After DeepMind’s cofounder was placed on leave for bullying, Google promoted him

#270

Post by neolog »

torstenvl wrote: post #225
neolog wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of practices that aren't crimes but which should nevertheless be discouraged within organizations.

I don't agree in this context. The terms "misconduct" and "bullying" are far too close to allegations of crimes. Our society is trending toward disregard of the presumption of innocence, and that is far more of a societal problem than having an aggressive and ambitious team leader who cares more about results than coddling. If he committed a crime, the evidence should be presented. If he did not, then tarring him wit…

Being publicly nasty to someone on a regular basis is bad and I wouldn't want it in my work environment, but I don't think the government usually gets involved at the civil level, let alone the criminal level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_bullying#Typology_of... and below

https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment

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