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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#261

Post by hypocry12 »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #251
poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

Don't underestimate the EU. It's a slow beast but it can bear a grudge. The language used to address Hungary is slowly becoming more and more aggressive. A head of state from a small EU country explicitly called for Hungary to leave. You also have to remember that the EU is an union of sovereign countries. Plenty can be done by EU members where the EU is powerless. History shows that messing with France and Germany c…

History also shows that when Germany messes about with east europe it can get messy rather quickly. And sadly hungary is in bed with russia. The eu should just cut funding for hungary and let everything else play out from there. Anything more that that is pure suicide for an already declining eu.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#262

Post by pessimizer »

joelbluminator wrote: post #197
andrepd wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's easy to see Israel's interest in supplying technology to those regimes and assuring good relations; It's easy to see that it's in my interest to kill a woman on an unlit street and nick her purse. What kind of argument is this?? It's especially aggravating since so much propaganda comes out touting Israel as a democracy and decrying the savage Palestinians for being a dictatorship.

It's probably not in your interest since you'd go to jail and the whole metaphor seems quite simplistic to me. Since you seem to be talking about ethics, not interests, If Israel supports Egypt's El-Sisi is that immoral? Yes he is a despot, but the opposition is worse. Same can be said about Israel's support to the Palestinian Authority. It's quite difficult to know what the right thing to do is. Israel wants good re…

> Yes he is a despot, but the opposition is worse.

As long as you're just willing to make things up, everything is justifiable.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#263

Post by raddan »

pasabagi wrote: post #184
pjc50 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something Yes, but is the thing they're upset about and the thing they're directing their anger towards actually linked? It's often hugely successful in politics to say "all your problems are the fault of this external bad actor" rather than " we have a problem and it's going to take a lot of hard work to fix it". It's very easy to bl…

> en masse in Eastern Europe Is Germany in Eastern Europe now?

No, but Bosnia is.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omarska_camp

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#264

Post by bluthund »

egeozcan wrote: post #260
bluthund wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully that never happens. Hopefully more Hungary's emerge. Hopefully more Western countries start actually serving their people Hopefully nationalism crushes this perverse anti Western virus which has taken over the once greatest nations in the world

In this day and age, don't people like you read/watch some world history? What you are saying seems so narrow-minded (ignoring the racist undertone), it makes me confused.

It's precisely a studying and understanding of history which makes me so.

Perhaps people like you would do better to engage in conversation where you might learn something you don't know rather than throw out your classic epithets

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#265

Post by hutzlibu »

neel8986 wrote: post #225
pell wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. I'm not going to go into the topic of migration and the "legality" of it. But the reason Orban is considered "radical" by many is not because of his stance on immigration first and foremost but because he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the m…

Looks so much similar to Modi in India. At some point we are all helpless in front of blatant rhetoric. We will destroy our institutions just for the hatred for "others"

Rhetoric on its own is nothing. But rhetoric that adresses needs and fears of a big size of the people - does.

So I do not see the solution in fighting populist rhetoric, but in adressing the cause of the fear of the people.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#266

Post by hutzlibu »

jsbdk wrote: post #247
pjc50 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's almost seven million displaced Syrians. The real failure is to not have dealt with the Syrian crisis, and now the demand to kick out the refugees, no matter how impractical this is or how lethal it would be to them, is rising.

I don't really see how the Syrian issue is my fault or my responsibility. Why aren't all those Syrians flown to the United States and Israel? Now that would be fair.

Or to turkey, russia, iran, france ... there are many powers involved in syria and fighting over it.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#267

Post by reader_mode »

ginko wrote: post #118
reader_mode wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What other comparable developed countries are there ? Australia had it's own isolation thing so it's a different context entirely. Russia had vacation faster, China as well.

Japan and South Korea for instance, but what's your point?

That some EU members had deals for faster delivery and got overturned by EU causing a worse situation for those countries, just like UK would if it was a part of EU.

Von der Leyen even said so herself, and she still believes it was the right thing to do to stifle the big countries in order to maintain the EU.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#268

Post by ginko »

reader_mode wrote: post #267
ginko wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan and South Korea for instance, but what's your point?

That some EU members had deals for faster delivery and got overturned by EU causing a worse situation for those countries, just like UK would if it was a part of EU. Von der Leyen even said so herself, and she still believes it was the right thing to do to stifle the big countries in order to maintain the EU.

If Germany or the Netherlands decided to ban exports on vaccines they'd probably have had the highest vaccination rates on the planet. But that would just be selfish. Stifling big countries in favor of a fair distribution of vaccines WAS the right thing.

What if some US state with most of the vaccine manufacturing had stopped the export of vaccine over state borders? Would that be fine by you because it's in their self interest?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#269

Post by ashtonkem »

pessimizer wrote: post #250
joelbluminator wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hungary aside, most of Israel's allies in the region are dictatorships, actaully all of them: Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Morocco (arguably, let's agree it's not a liberal democracy) and so on and so on. There are zero democracies in the area. So it's easy to see Israel's interest in supplying technology to those regimes and assuring good relations; it's not like the oppositions to these dictators are any bette…

> Isn't the U.S selling arms to Saudi Arabia? The US and UK sell arms to all of these countries. That's not a good sign; the US even directly subsidizes the military and police of some of them. We like dictatorships that make our political donors money.

I’d argue that we like dictatorships that align with our strategic interests. Raytheon doesn’t really care who we sell arms to, as long as they get sold. The politicians want to back anyone that’ll push back against our mortal enemy the USSR Iran.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#270

Post by egeozcan »

bluthund wrote: post #264
egeozcan wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this day and age, don't people like you read/watch some world history? What you are saying seems so narrow-minded (ignoring the racist undertone), it makes me confused.

It's precisely a studying and understanding of history which makes me so. Perhaps people like you would do better to engage in conversation where you might learn something you don't know rather than throw out your classic epithets

So, to be clear, you studied and "understood" history and came to the conclusion that nationalism is a good thing. How? It's clear that I don't agree with you. I think you must be too isolated from some nice people to be so furious about other people.
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