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“I wish I could have licensed the Id source code releases as BSD”

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Re: “I wish I could have licensed the Id source code releases as BSD”

#261
post #259

I'm very frustrated by some of the answers here and on Twitter. Carmack says: > The GPL virality wound up being a net negative, and more value would have come from BSD. [...] The best aspects of GPL work didn't manifest, but tons of opportunities to just copy-paste-modify were lost due to license concerns. One of the answers on Twitter: > Then what if it's being exploited by big techs and make your work proprietary?…

Carmack has net worth of $50 million. Him saying "exploitation by big tech is not a problem, really" is very different than normal person saying it - his well being is not on the line and never will be. Go ask authors of ElasticSearch or Airflow or whatever the new thing that AWS steals will be.

ElasticSearch was GPL (AGPL). It didn’t help them because what their business model needed was not just sharing back changes to source code but to actually disincentivize competition in the space of providing cloud SaaS for the product.

Hence why they and mongodb switched to a shared source license that is not Free software.

Re: “I wish I could have licensed the Id source code releases as BSD”

#262
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the key property of the GPL is its virality. It's part of the vision that if I can use some software, I can also change it, to adapt it to my needs, to learn from it, to build something on top of it. I can disassemble my bike, re-assemble it, change it, build on top of it. I want to do that with my browser, my OS kernel and my image viewer too. That this is connected to how "valuable" code is, is in a sense a…

Well I agree in that regard, but I think in the ideal world everything would just be open, and you would want to incentivise openness so it ends up as the natural state. In a sense by decoupling these issues. Eg Microsoft Windows OS could just be open source. There is some value to having windows itself, but the more valuable thing is the horde of programmers, and all the other resources behind it.

I believe that to understand GPL and FSF philosophy, you have to look at software from the point of view of the end user, not programmers.

> There is some value to having windows itself, but the more valuable thing is the horde of programmers, and all the other resources behind it.

This is partly true. What's valuable is for code to do things for people. For that to happen, you need programmers who can make that code, and maintain it over time. The way companies make money on proprietary software is by controlling the intersection - they control the access to code and programmers who can work on it, so if you, as end user, want your computer to do something, you have to pay them. If you want the program to do something else, you have to pay them (or their partners, friends, subsidiaries) to make the modifications/extensions.

GPL exists to defeat this stranglehold. It does it in two ways. First, like permissive licenses, it ensures you can modify the code yourself, or commission some programmers to do that for you. Secondly, unlike permissive licenses, it ensures that you can't just turn around and lock down your improvements, preventing other end-users from doing to the improved version the same thing you just did to the base version. In this way, it ensures the money can only flow from users requesting work to programmers doing the work - it removes the ability to seek rent for the work already done. It removes control over users from the hands of companies and software developers.

Permissive licenses are obviously preferred by software industry, because they give more control to us, software developers, at the expense of end users.

Re: “I wish I could have licensed the Id source code releases as BSD”

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty disparaging that there are people on HN who feel confident enough to enter into discussions about software licencing —albeit on a throwaway account— but don't understand that software can have more than one license. I'd like to think I do understand all sides of this, but I will admit AGPL does give me pause for thought. It makes sense for standalone projects which don't have to be integrated. But at comp…

> Does make me wonder why there isn't an ALGPL: "Use my network-expressed component as you like, but if you alter its source, you also need to redistribute the changes under the same license"… I'm fairly sure there's a GPL like that, either the GPLv3 or a version of the AGPL. It definitely doesn't let you alter the source for network servers, though, exactly like you say.

I believe you refer to AGPLv3: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.html

"It has one added requirement: if you run a modified program on a server and let other users communicate with it there, your server must also allow them to download the source code corresponding to the modified version running there."

Notably, the Canvas learning management system is licensed this way, and all of their JavaScript is unminified so you can download it from the server.

Re: “I wish I could have licensed the Id source code releases as BSD”

#264
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you modify a public domain work, copyright comes back. If we're using virus analogies then copyright is like a retrovirus. Forever baked into the "DNA" of our legal systems and you can never be rid of it. I think, like many people, you consider copyright to be like some unquestionable right. But it's not. It was invented about 400 years ago and it's way out of date. We can and should question it. If you can't thin…

Does that copyright, coming back, have any actual consequences? What people mean by virality is not some copyright coming back; it's the fact that GPL "spreads" via linking. And that does have consequences: it's where license incompatibility comes from, and it's also why you can't use GPL-ed code with code under other (Open Source) licenses.

For what it's worth, the maximalist FSF position on linking is very unlikely to hold up in court, especially not after SCOTUS ruled in favor of Google in Google v. Oracle a few months back (which was not mere linking, but actual wholesale copying of header files).

Doesn't stop me from treating GPL software as a radioactive contaminant in practice.

Re: “I wish I could have licensed the Id source code releases as BSD”

#265
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does make me wonder why there isn't an ALGPL: "Use my network-expressed component as you like, but if you alter its source, you also need to redistribute the changes under the same license"… I'm fairly sure there's a GPL like that, either the GPLv3 or a version of the AGPL. It definitely doesn't let you alter the source for network servers, though, exactly like you say.

I believe you refer to AGPLv3: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.html "It has one added requirement: if you run a modified program on a server and let other users communicate with it there, your server must also allow them to download the source code corresponding to the modified version running there." Notably, the Canvas learning management system is licensed this way, and all of their JavaScript is unmin…

Ah, yep! Thank you.

Re: “I wish I could have licensed the Id source code releases as BSD”

#266
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you understand Gp's point that this in turn results in a net loss for everyone else.

People are not entitled to games created by free work. So it is not a 'net' loss.

Not entitled? Correct. Not a loss? Incorrect.

Re: “I wish I could have licensed the Id source code releases as BSD”

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely a tough call. Maybe this is an industry scale problem. The GPL existing hasn't stopped walled gardens from developing, and open source is falling behind in many regards. Maybe the license isn't the correct place to address this. I'm not sure what the solution is, though...

Proprietary is, I think, the "default" way how people always did things. Keeping the recipe secret is one of the moats that help the enterprise stay relevant. So naturally, "it works" and I think it always will. IMO, this is why it's important to keep the open source stuff open. Closed doesn't usually turn into open, so why should open turn into closed? I think the legal system is exactly the place to address this, i…

I don't remember who but someone here on HN once compared closed source vs open source to old school secretive alchemy guilds vs real science.

I really liked that comparison and I've thought about it a lot since. And here it's worth asking, how did we go from alchemy to science? How did we end up figuring out that openness and transparency is beneficial?

I know one thing, it wasn't with licenses. But I'm really curious, because I want to live in the world where open source is the default. I just don't know how we get there.

Re: “I wish I could have licensed the Id source code releases as BSD”

#268
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to attribute. So commercial projects that do not want to attribute are not permitted to use the code.

this does not in any way prevent commercial use

Really? So if I want to include BSD code without attributing in my commercial software, I can distribute the binary?

That’s rhetorical. I can’t do so legally without receiving a different license for the copyrighted code.

The counter example to what you claim is trivial to construct.

Re: “I wish I could have licensed the Id source code releases as BSD”

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>GPL advocates say it's so that your code isn't exploited by corporations. I am not sure which GPL advocates you have spoken to, but I like the GPL, because it puts me center as a user. I can use and copy a programm as I see fit. And if I come to a point where I think something has gone wrong with it or something is missing, then I can modify it myself, or pay someone to help me do that, and I can distribute these mo…

What if that "bad" is insignificant compared to the good produced by that code as part of proprietary software? That scenario is impossible with GPL. Effectively, you're just restricting the business models of your users. It has worked for some projects (Linux above all) but if you're talking about a small project that likely stays small, I don't know if it usually makes much sense. Also, your convoluted explanation…

I agree with your point on the usage of the word "bad", this is what the term "relative" that I used implied, as well as the explaination of which specific aspect I think it applies to.

I am not sure why you are trying to make fun of me:

Permissive licenses ensure that the first generation of users/developers benefit from the code in question being free, and then allow restrictions. Licenses along the lines of the GPL make sure software stays free even after generations of copies. The restriction in the GPL that sets it apart from, let's say, the BSD license, is that it doesn't allow further restrictions.

So the tree of descendants of an originally "permissively" licensed code contains potentially more restrictions, that the tree of descendants of originally GPL licensed code.

Quite possible that this makes the GPL the less successfull of the bunch.

That shares a similarity to the paradox of tolerance: To ensure a society stays tolerant, it has to be intolerant against it's intolerant subgroups. You can argue that a society should be so free that is does not do this, but that just diminishes tolerance in the long run, so of the two paradigms, paradoxically, the more tolerant society is the one with a specific intolerant rule against intolerant minorities.

This is, as you rightly noted, not how modern business models function.

Re: “I wish I could have licensed the Id source code releases as BSD”

#270

I'm very frustrated by some of the answers here and on Twitter. Carmack says: > The GPL virality wound up being a net negative, and more value would have come from BSD. [...] The best aspects of GPL work didn't manifest, but tons of opportunities to just copy-paste-modify were lost due to license concerns. One of the answers on Twitter: > Then what if it's being exploited by big techs and make your work proprietary?…

Empirical evidence of his subjective goals going unmet is not empirical evidence of an objective truth we all must follow.
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