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Apology

felleisen.org

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Re: Apology

#261

Post by WalterBright »

jolux wrote: post #260
WalterBright wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you said that behavior that offends is partially the fault of the person taking offense I did not say that. Please read more carefully.

> It takes two to make an offense - one to give offense, the other to take offense. Don't take offense, and there is no offense. What else does this mean?

It does not mean the offendee is responsible for the behavior of the offender.

It means the offendee is responsible for the offendee's reaction.

Very, very different.

Re: Apology

#262

Post by jolux »

WalterBright wrote: post #261
jolux wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes two to make an offense - one to give offense, the other to take offense. Don't take offense, and there is no offense. What else does this mean?

It does not mean the offendee is responsible for the behavior of the offender. It means the offendee is responsible for the offendee's reaction . Very, very different.

That’s true, but something should also be done to correct the behavior of the offender, which is what I think most of this thread is talking about.

Re: Apology

#263

Post by WalterBright »

jolux wrote: post #262
WalterBright wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not mean the offendee is responsible for the behavior of the offender. It means the offendee is responsible for the offendee's reaction . Very, very different.

That’s true, but something should also be done to correct the behavior of the offender, which is what I think most of this thread is talking about.

At least one poster in this thread has attempted to bully me. He failed - and not because anyone tried to correct his behavior. It's because his insults do not affect me.

Re: Apology

#264

Post by mathattack »

throw3456548 wrote: post #129

Huh. It's interesting to see this come out now. Years ago I was planning on entering a PL PhD program until I met Felleisen. He yelled at me, insulted me, and I left nearly crying. That was the last straw that led to me leave academia, and I never came back. A young woman I know switched out of her computer science major after taking his class and said she still had nightmares about him. Another person I know worked…

Apparently you’re not the only subordinate he’s loaded off in academia. https://felleisen.org/matthias/Thoughts/Free_Speech.html

Re: Apology

#265

Post by muyuu »

throwaway210918 wrote: post #249

I was a graduate student in Matthias’s lab from 2000 to 2004. During that time, I spent many, many hours working at my desk in close proximity to his office. I watched many individuals go in and come out of private meetings with Matthias. I TA’d a handful of courses under him. I participated in student meetings with him. I worked in his summer schools for high school teachers. I traveled with him to conferences. I sa…

why the throwaway though? if you remove the exact dates you'd be fairly pseudonymous I assume

Re: Apology

#266

Post by muyuu »

wpietri wrote: post #78
nubb wrote: post #38

I’m so surprised at the vitriol in these comments. He spoke to others about the situation and apologized. What more can a person do?

What more can a person do? Just off the top of my head: He could have addressed the full substance of the blog post, which was a pattern of "inten­tional, person­al­ized abuse and bullying" with "inci­dents were numerous, happening over a period of years". He could have used this incident to reflect on his broader behavior not just toward this one person but more generally. He could have talked the steps he was takin…

anglo-saxon culture is shame-based not guilt-based

there's some influence from classic/Med cultures which are guilt based, through greco-roman philosophy or Catholicism, but by-and-large Northern Europe and NA are shame-based cultures and don't really believe in repentance or contrition, but social harmony and restitution

in a shame-based culture asking for forgiveness is largely an empty gesture, and conversely in a guilt-based culture asking for an apology hollows out its meaning and it's seen as a political/diplomatic thing, done outwards for social effect

Re: Apology

#267

Post by muyuu »

This sounds pretty good to me.

This point stood out to me:

> I think of everyone in the room as an equal in such settings, and I expect them to see themselves this way. I clearly forget that I am the oldest and most experienced—and I should act this way in a post-mortem conversation.

Clearly this is a major blind spot, esp. when considering the "free speech experiment" section of the site... publishing what Damore posted as a mere Jr. SoftEng in Google is radically not the same as doing it as one of the most senior people in the organisation - it's pretty much the opposite of speaking truth to power and of course it can be seen as an act of intimidation, even if you are in the ideological minority.

Re: Apology

#268

Post by r-w »

blagie wrote: post #212
goto11 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've heard from people close to him that that's just the way he is and you have to get used to it. Perhaps, but usually bullies are only bullies when they are in a position of power and are perfectly capable of behaving different to people who have power over them. How often to you hear about employees calling their boss and screaming at the boss at 3 in the morning? Strangely this rarely happens. > What if not und…

I know a lot of people like that. I'm from a culture which is perceived as abrasive, harsh, critical, and aggressive in the US. That goes up, down, and sideways. We're often perceived as bullies until we learn to code-switch. African Americans get a pass here, since most people are familiar enough with African American culture and mannerisms to know how (or at least that) people use language differently, body languag…

Why don't we just not yell at each other?

Re: Apology

#269

Post by r-w »

freeopinion wrote: post #176
123123as1asd12 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other side of this is that some of us do end up trying to fit in, hiding it but not well enough... Just come off as assholes or socially inept and hurting peoples feelings a lot more than if you were obviously on the spectrum,

Why don't we just assume that everyone with such an abrasive personality is very high functioning spectrum. Should we cut everybody slack, now? Is there a line where we let some have a pass and others not?

Who’s “we”? Everyone has their own standards, and they’re in their right to stick by those standards. It’s whether “we” accommodate those standards that makes the difference.

Re: Apology

#270

Post by r-w »

WalterBright wrote: post #202
tluyben2 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think very much like WalterBright as I never took offense (was raised to just listen to what people try to say, not how they say it) (and if someone goes physical (some people, when they cannot hurt you with words, start shoving you etc) I punch them in the face). But that way, usually, the bully just moves to someone else and, even though I am untouched, the person did not change. So now that I am older, I…

Nobody here is excusing bullies.

Going back to MB’s article:

> what all bullies crave: the silence of their targets.

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