Live data from Hacker News

Shell ordered to cut CO2 emissions by 45% in landmark climate case

euronews.com

261–270 of 292 posts

Re: Shell ordered to cut CO2 emissions by 45% in landmark climate case

#261

Now this is something that could have an actual impact on carbon emissions. The sooner these fossil fuel companies get fined or taxed the better.

Fossil fuel companies aren't greedy monopoly men burning oil for no reason. Oil companies sell oil to consumers. Imagine if US gas prices went up overnight to $10/gallon. There would be riots. Jan 6th would look like a warm-up. But does anybody realistically think that they can carbon-capture 1 gallon of gas's worth of carbon emissions for $7? How much would it realistically cost? It's willful ignorance to think that…

I think this is too fatalistic. There are tons of things which can be done to reduce CO2 and the sooner we do the more time we gain for bigger transformations.

The big thing would be sending a strong public message that gas will only get more expensive every year: that discourages sales of inefficient vehicles which will be polluting for a couple of decades, pushes businesses to invest in major capital investments now, etc. Every time that’s happened, the cost to industry has been far less than the naysayers predicted.

Re: Shell ordered to cut CO2 emissions by 45% in landmark climate case

#262
post #2

What's the legal basis of this lawsuit? Are they violating some sort of law? Are they not violating any law, but just doing "bad"? The article isn't clear. >"Shell is the biggest polluter in the Netherlands. The company emits nine times as much CO2 as the entire Netherlands combined. Surely this is because shell is a multinational company and the netherlands is a small country?

> What's the legal basis of this lawsuit? Are they violating some sort of law? Are they not violating any law, but just doing "bad"? The article isn't clear.

Apparently the are not violating the law, but they will soon violate 'obligagtions'. From the WSJ...

'The court said that Shell wasn’t in breach of its obligation to reduce carbon emissions, but that there was an “imminent breach” and therefore set the reduction requirement. It said its ruling covered the emissions of the company’s own operations and also those of its suppliers and customers.'

Re: Shell ordered to cut CO2 emissions by 45% in landmark climate case

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stated facts. 1) Supply tends to meet demand at the cost of the marginal supplier. 2) If the West is not willing to, the rest of the folks will be happy to do so. Btw more than 50% of the global liquids demand is for diesel, jet fuel and bunker fuel for ships. At the time of writing we do not have any viable alternatives for these, and we do not expect to have them ready and scaled up in the next 8 years.

The first nuclear powered container ship was built in 1959, and we could have had zero emissions ships all this time. We can replace all jet fuel with biofuel, all diesel with electric or hydrogen.

So to be clear, the viable path you refer to includes complete elimination of gasoline usage globally, 100% conversion to biojet fuel and biodiesel from jet and diesel respectively, and ~ 50% of the world vessel fleet to be converted to nuclear. In 8 years.

Re: Shell ordered to cut CO2 emissions by 45% in landmark climate case

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The one that takes 'less' carbon is easy ... go the the coin laundry. " Thank you for providing exibit A - blaming the consumer for being uneducated and yet getting it all wrong yourself -> Your frequent trips to the laundry will produce much more carbon than you could ever save by not buying an appliance that serves for 10 years on average. "But blaming the manufacturer who is currently operating within the governi…

> Your frequent trips to the laundry will produce much more carbon than you could ever save by not buying an appliance that serves for 10 years on average. Not if you go to the laundry next to the grocery. Why would you spend more money on fuel when you could combine a trip? > But blamind the consumer who is currently operating withing governing authorities guidelines is fair game. The consumer is the one that influe…

"Why would you spend more money on fuel when you could combine a trip?"

Because there is no laundry next to my grocery store?

Or Because you have to wait for hours for the laundry to finish, so for some people it's two trips, or because there are queues. There are no carbon savings in using a laundry, and this discourse in carbon accounting illustrates the problem perfectly - it is not possible for a consumer to trace the supply chain used by some megacorp which combines 150 minerals from 50 countries over 6 modes of transport to conclude anything accurate about carbon footprint.

You mention politicians, but thats only coming round to politicians and regulation because the market has failed.

Re: Shell ordered to cut CO2 emissions by 45% in landmark climate case

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first nuclear powered container ship was built in 1959, and we could have had zero emissions ships all this time. We can replace all jet fuel with biofuel, all diesel with electric or hydrogen.

So to be clear, the viable path you refer to includes complete elimination of gasoline usage globally, 100% conversion to biojet fuel and biodiesel from jet and diesel respectively, and ~ 50% of the world vessel fleet to be converted to nuclear. In 8 years.

What's your guess then for the % convesion possible? Is that the whole argument, how many % is feasable in the time frame?

Re: Shell ordered to cut CO2 emissions by 45% in landmark climate case

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> blaming them because they sold a product happily used to improved our quality of life seems silly. "Blame" isn't really the important part here, the important part is enacting corrective action for harm done. Even if they hadn't conducted a misinformation campaign, Shell profited by causing great harm. As a purely financial entity, without introducing any morality or ethics, they owe the financial damages they have…

If you take every super major oil producer today and say they have to produce half as much oil what happens? They sell off half their assets to smaller oil companies. But you still have the same number of wells pumping oil/gas. I just don't see how this helps anyone, it's a silly PR win. Shell didn't wrought any economic harm on their customers. We as a society have failed to regulate the consumption of oil/gas (as w…

The underlying assumption in this scenario is that global demand for fossil fuels without carbon capture and sequestration will remain constant. This is certainly not the case.

Shell can either start capturing carbon to lower their emissions, or perhaps they can sell to smaller firms. But those smaller firms are now under the same gun that Shell currently is. So investors in these smaller firms risk losing everything as well.

Already it is getting far far more difficult for fossil fuel companies to raise money for new extraction. Their stock prices have already taken massive hits.

Capital sees the writing on the wall, as does every single fossil fuel exec. It's not a matter of if extraction stops, but when. Many thought that there could be one more round of exploration, but this court decision is just one more huge hurdle for actually extracting anything from new exploration.

The tides are turning, we have alternatives to emissions now, the only question is if when we switch.

Re: Shell ordered to cut CO2 emissions by 45% in landmark climate case

#267

Now this is something that could have an actual impact on carbon emissions. The sooner these fossil fuel companies get fined or taxed the better.

Fossil fuel companies aren't greedy monopoly men burning oil for no reason. Oil companies sell oil to consumers. Imagine if US gas prices went up overnight to $10/gallon. There would be riots. Jan 6th would look like a warm-up. But does anybody realistically think that they can carbon-capture 1 gallon of gas's worth of carbon emissions for $7? How much would it realistically cost? It's willful ignorance to think that…

A total of 173,000 terawatts (trillions of watts) of solar energy strikes the Earth continuously.

That’s more than 10,000 times the world’s total energy use.

We can transition to solar and wind power.

Re: Shell ordered to cut CO2 emissions by 45% in landmark climate case

#268
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is driving a car today "knowingly contributing to a preventable dangerous situation"?

I am glad you asked this question because this is what is missing in these situations. Where does the individual bear responsibility in any of this? Instead the public tends to focus on the huge evil corporation who struggles to even keep up with our demand for the very product we are damning them for. There are 1.4 Billion cars on the road.[0] Somehow that is Shells fault? Really? I'm not saying Shell has not commit…

> There are 1.4 Billion cars on the road.[0] Somehow that is Shells fault? Really?

Shell is at fault for providing a product that causes harms and not rectifying that harm.

Cars? Who cares, that's not what Shell sells.

I would love to shift some liability to city planners that have made so much of the population dependent on cars, and some liability to car manufacturers, and maybe even to the advocates that make it nearly impossible to build homes and workplaces that don't depend on cars. But the legal ground is much shakier.

And it's even possible to build cars that don't depend on carbon emissions, much of the liability that I would like to see shifted to car manufacturers is because they have actively foiled attempts to move off emitting power sources. But I wouldn't want to invest in a new ICE in this day and age. It's likely that it will be off the road long before its lifetime is over. Natural fleet turnover for our vehicles is not quick enough to solve the problem.

And if somebody else is going to "feed" our cars, they will be just as liable for the damage they cause.

A lot of people are going to have a HARD awakening in the coming decade. They have been believing the bullshit from fossil fuel companies, BS that even the fossil fuel companies didn't believe, but spread to eke out just another few years of profits before having to change their strategy. And the companies that refuse to disrupt themselves are the ones who will be forcefully disrupted.

This moment in time is like when the iPhone was released and Blackberry had no idea what was coming. Renewables are cheaper than natural gas right now, and by the time we need massive amounts of storage, renewables plus lithium ion batteries will be cheaper than combined cycle gas turbines. Every new natural gas asset will be stranded within the next decade, as new renewables+storage will be cheaper than the opex for continuing to burn gas.

Re: Shell ordered to cut CO2 emissions by 45% in landmark climate case

#269

Now this is something that could have an actual impact on carbon emissions. The sooner these fossil fuel companies get fined or taxed the better.

This could be the equivalent to price fixing, which is not productive and makes the whole system operate less efficiently, generally resulting in the opposite of what you want. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you can just force it to go away by law.

Re: Shell ordered to cut CO2 emissions by 45% in landmark climate case

#270
post #141

Sounds like this could push Shell to fund a beachhead market to get carbon removal companies started up. Note: folks seriously interested in carbon removal or starting a carbon removal company should check out http://airminers.org

You mean trees?
Post reply on HN