If any Google employees are reading this thread and don't agree with this move, it seems like the kind of issue that the Alphabet Workers Union would be in a perfect position to help push back on. Join up: https://alphabetworkersunion.org/
Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work
261–270 of 623 posts
Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work
#262Just in case you were operating under the illusion that tech giants are run by forward thinking executives who are immune to the usual politics and problems of corporate life. Nope, most of their exec layer is a bunch of people who cut their teeth the industry in the 90's, and are operating within a thick fog of local workplace politics. I guarantee that behind this move is an executive who believes that developers n…
Absolutely - in knowledge economy, insisting on physical presence is darn damn stupid.
And I don't want to hang "with friends at work" I go to "work" that has to be specified clearly and that I expect to deliver with purely professional merit driven collaboration and not friendships and gangs.
I have friends or would love to have friends out of the place where I work. I want strict compartmentalisation between work and personal life. As the company would not want my personal friends to be hanging around the workplace for confidentiality and what not - by the same token, I don't workplace "friends" hanging out with me after office hours.
Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
Anecdotally, I've been a remote engineer on and off for ten years. There have been plenty of companies where I thought we might have achieved more with an office. Yes, I understand you can always improve your processes but there does feel like there are fundamental limitations with remote work.
The thing is, remote working is still in its infancy and has a lot of potential for improvement. Office has maxed out and just bumps back and forth.
I don't think remote working is in its infancy, it's more a case of the scope has been changed the recent year or so.
The benefits of remote work is mostly being able to focus and reducing the daily commute. However remote work never brings the same connection to your co-workers as being physically present in an office and in my opinion that is extremely important.
I understand very well that those with long commutes like the work from home idea, most of the time it also enables them to have a nicer house/apartment than what would be available in the city. Since that is at the cost of those living in the city with shorter commute, there will always be mixed feelings about working from home/remote working at the workplace.
Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work
#264When will introverts realise that their working conditions are being dictated to them by extroverts? The pandemic-driven remote working is hell for some people, and unfortunately they call the shots. I don’t mind coming into your office now and again (there’s a special dimension to IRL connections), but the reason I don’t want to work there full time is that it’s crap for knowledge work. I outspend you by 10x per hea…
For me, either I can go to the office 90% of the time or I can burn out from being alone at home and only talking to people via chat/video. My personal live is qualitatively better when I go to work most of the time. There are tradeoffs but on the whole the benefits of WFH (less interruptions) don't make up for the isolation.
In the same way working 60-80hrs a week will start being more productive at the start but eventually burn most people out, at least for me and people like me, not hanging out with others will do the same thing.
It's a balance for me. Too little direct interaction, short breaks, sharing lunches, having non-work related conversations, will end up decreasing my over all productivity.
You're welcome to WFH but I personally hope you're in the minority because if no one but me goes to the office then it's just as bad as WFH for me.
Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is long commute something that's normal for "most people"? Most people around here have commutes shorter than 30 minutes one way.
This is the thing, right. The problem isn't remote or office per se, it's the commute to and from the office that's the issue. I can definitely focus more at home, but I really miss my 30 minute bike commute.
>I really miss my 30 minute bike commute.
I've seen this argument before, and I don't understand how working from home changes this honestly.
Why not just start your day with a bike ride for leisure? Unbound by the location of your office you can now cycle to any arbitrary location. If you struggle to do it without a reason, perhaps cycle to a bakery or store and pickup some fresh food for the day.
Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work
#266That's interesting, since my assumption is that Google would be fairly data driven. I'd be curious if Googlers feel like this is because they are really seeing reduced productivity, or if there's a different motivation.
Disclaimer: Googler managing a small product engineering team. I have to say WFH has a considerable impact on productivity. Coding is actually fine, but the problems are: 1. Designing over VC is very difficult, especially for something entirely new. 3~4 people working on a single whiteboard is far more efficient. 2. Personal relationships are difficult to grow, especially for newbies. Usually those things got grown v…
I've found that 3-4 people doing the initial design for something is usually too many. One person on their own or two people so they can bounce ideas off each other seems to be ideal. After the first rough sketch of the design is ready (it shouldn't have too many details), it should be presented to a larger audience so they can take feedback and course-correct if needed.
The personal relationship stuff is tricky, and I think junior folks, and especially fresh grads, got hit pretty hard here. On the flip side, I joined a new team around the time we all went remote last year (with several people I'd never met or heard of before), and it turned out just fine. I wouldn't say I'm buddies with all the new people, but I think we all feel comfortable with and respect each other. I joined in more of a technical leadership role, though, so I can totally get that someone who has to also deal with receiving mentorship could feel a bit overwhelmed and lost.
The work-life balance thing I find very puzzling. Many people (especially in the bay area) have gotten 1-2 hours per day of commute time back from utter waste (though I guess you folks at Google have the buses). Sure, things get blurred when you work at a desk in your bedroom, or at your kitchen table. But this is something that you as a manager need to be on top of by setting an example for the team. Keep reasonable hours, and disconnect outside those hours. Don't hold your team members to deadlines that require them to work excessive hours. When you sign off at 5 or 6pm with your "gotta go, chat tomorrow", make it clear that you expect the rest of the team to sign off pretty soon as well.
Having said that, I do know people in my org that work too much. But they're the kind of people who weren't great at balance back when we were in offices, either.
Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work
#267Just in case you were operating under the illusion that tech giants are run by forward thinking executives who are immune to the usual politics and problems of corporate life. Nope, most of their exec layer is a bunch of people who cut their teeth the industry in the 90's, and are operating within a thick fog of local workplace politics. I guarantee that behind this move is an executive who believes that developers n…
One thing I have noticed is that while the old hats (those hired some time before the pandemic) are as productive, or maybe even more productive while working remote, it's a struggle to bring in new people, especially more junior people. Maybe these are problems that can be solved, but it seems that an already a challenging and stressful situation, joining a new company, is even more difficult when you are not able to spend time together in person to pick up on team dynamics and just general mentoring.
I assume it's a bit easier if you are more senior and have a few company changes on your resume, but for someone for whom its their first or second job in the industry, it can be overwhelming. I think that's why often fully remote companies pre-pandemic seemed to be more focussed on hiring seniors.
Likely some of these problems can be mitigated as we learn how to deal with them, but this is one reason why I think post-pandemic most software houses will have to adopt a policy of encouraging some on-site work.
Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work
#268Just in case you were operating under the illusion that tech giants are run by forward thinking executives who are immune to the usual politics and problems of corporate life. Nope, most of their exec layer is a bunch of people who cut their teeth the industry in the 90's, and are operating within a thick fog of local workplace politics. I guarantee that behind this move is an executive who believes that developers n…
Absolutely - in knowledge economy, insisting on physical presence is darn damn stupid. And I don't want to hang "with friends at work" I go to "work" that has to be specified clearly and that I expect to deliver with purely professional merit driven collaboration and not friendships and gangs. I have friends or would love to have friends out of the place where I work. I want strict compartmentalisation between work a…
> As the company would not want my personal friends to be hanging around the workplace for confidentiality and what not - by the same token, I don't workplace "friends" hanging out with me after office hours.
Both of these are common scenarios at Google, though.
Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work
#269When will introverts realise that their working conditions are being dictated to them by extroverts? The pandemic-driven remote working is hell for some people, and unfortunately they call the shots. I don’t mind coming into your office now and again (there’s a special dimension to IRL connections), but the reason I don’t want to work there full time is that it’s crap for knowledge work. I outspend you by 10x per hea…
For most people home office makes sense for practical reasons - long commute, spending more time with the family, living in a nicer / cheaper location but having a well paying job. On the other hand, extreme introverts that don't tolerate working in an office are a tiny minority and should dictate the working conditions even less than the extroverts. Personally I tend toward introvert (it's not black and white) and h…
I agree it's true for "some" people. Not for "most"
"spending time with family" - no, I'm single and alone and so are most of my co-workers
"living in a nicer / cheaper location" - no, my office is nicer than my home and same for most of my co-workers.
Your situation and needs are different than mine apparently.
Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work
#270That's interesting, since my assumption is that Google would be fairly data driven. I'd be curious if Googlers feel like this is because they are really seeing reduced productivity, or if there's a different motivation.
Disclaimer: Googler managing a small product engineering team. I have to say WFH has a considerable impact on productivity. Coding is actually fine, but the problems are: 1. Designing over VC is very difficult, especially for something entirely new. 3~4 people working on a single whiteboard is far more efficient. 2. Personal relationships are difficult to grow, especially for newbies. Usually those things got grown v…
> Designing over VC is very difficult, especially for something entirely new. 3~4 people working on a single whiteboard is far more efficient.
What's stopping someone from just... grabbing a whiteboard? They ain't expensive. Yeah, maybe not everyone can write to it, but everyone should be able to read from it. Designate someone as the writer and you're good to go.
> There's nothing like "gotta go, chat tomorrow" stuff.
What about "Sorry, just broke for $MEAL, let's put it on the calendar for tomorrow"?