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Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

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Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#261

Post by 1cvmask »

harry8 wrote: post #168
rdw wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 30% cut was considered very good at the time. It was way better than the 50-90% cut that traditional publishers would take. A sibling comment notes that Steam charged 30% at the time (though some had better deals) but it's worth noting that Steam was not an open platform that anyone could publish on. Much like for consoles, to put a game on Steam you had to have a preexisting relationship with Valve, or try to de…

"The 30% cut was considered very good at the time." Let me fix this. There was a full range of views. Some considered the 30% cut to be good at the time, some didn't consider it much at all, some considered it to be a criminal abuse of market power. I remember commenting myself that microsoft would be crucified for attempting to tax everyone who wanted to write software for windows 30% of revenue. I don't recall anyo…

In the mobile world there were so many intermediaries and costs to publish then that included:

-the mobile carriers cut - up to 70 percent

-the publishers cut (depending on whether you used them). up to 70 percent (carrier fees included).

-some publishers requiring apps to be code signed like Java Verified (a cost that could go up to 50 thousand dollars PER J2ME/JAVA ME app) or Symbian Signed or BREW.

It was a horrific time to build mobile apps.

I am still not defending the 30 percent cut. Just that the cost was seen as trivial then (also the miniscule 99 yearly membership fee that included code signing - Blackberry started at 2500 USD a year).

A simple solution to all this mess is to have rules allowing us to download apps (at our own risk) from outside the app store like you can on Android.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#262

Post by TechBro8615 »

threeseed wrote: post #212
rOOb85 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the OP article? The researchers clearly outline what apple is phoning home. They even made a nice clean table showing what apple and google are sending back to themselves.

I read the article and it's wrong. Apple does not explicitly "send" the user's IP address. It naturally is accessible on their end as a result of the TCP/IP protocol. But Apple has made quite clear that it does not use that information in any way.

The linked PDF (direct link for the truly lazy [0]) shows that every few minutes Apple sends binary data to its servers which includes the MAC address of nearby devices. (It's unclear if these are only devices on the same network, e.g. from arp, or any nearby devices that are broadcasting a static MAC address). Here, I'll even quote it for you. It's on page 7 at the bottom left, continuing on the top right:

> However, the geod process uploads binary messages to gsp85-ssl.ls.apple.com... While it is not clear what information is contained in this binary message, it can be seen to contain the MAC addresses of nearby devices sharing the same WiFi network as the handset e.g. f2:18:98:92:17:5 is the WiFi MAC address of a nearby laptop, 70:4d:7b:95:14:c0 the MAC address of the WiFi access point.

Idk what they do with this info, and I'd much rather Apple have it than Google, but you can imagine the "God mode" they could create at Apple HQ if they were so inclined. The data is absurd... imagine what you could do if you knew where billions of people were at every second of every day for years.

[0] https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#263

Post by TechBro8615 »

mmacvicarprett wrote: post #98

Why do they need IMEI for? and mac addresses of close networks (besides location). When the user gives consent for PII like IMEI, location, networks mac addresses? I wonder if both companies might be breaching the Children's Online Privacy Protection Rule ("COPPA").

You'd have to ask Apple, but I'd imagine they would say they use it to improve location services. Access point / MAC address data is really useful in aggregate as a way of augmenting GPS, especially indoors. And of course it's also a great way of seeing who associates with each other, but that's at least somewhat mitigated by most devices broadcasting random MAC addresses until they actually join a network.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#264

Post by haukilup »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #262
threeseed wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the article and it's wrong. Apple does not explicitly "send" the user's IP address. It naturally is accessible on their end as a result of the TCP/IP protocol. But Apple has made quite clear that it does not use that information in any way.

The linked PDF (direct link for the truly lazy [0]) shows that every few minutes Apple sends binary data to its servers which includes the MAC address of nearby devices. (It's unclear if these are only devices on the same network, e.g. from arp, or any nearby devices that are broadcasting a static MAC address). Here, I'll even quote it for you. It's on page 7 at the bottom left, continuing on the top right: > However…

Is that in any way related to the Covid framework/protocol that Apple provides?

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#265

Post by jodrellblank »

grishka wrote: post #220
jodrellblank wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple devices aren't crippled by it, they're improved by it. By curation and restriction. Users don't buy Apple gear to pay the lowest possible price for software, or to sideload software, users buy Apple to get something that works. The whole point is that Apple is selling an Apple experience, not an overwhelming flood of "fix it yourself" freeware. Users who want that can get it elsewhere, they shouldn't be forced…

> The whole point is that Apple is selling an Apple experience Once you bought a thing, you own it. That's it. It's cool to have a curated app store for those developers who want it. It's uncool for Apple to retain control of devices after they've been sold. > This is like a restaurant demanding smart shoes for customers You can't make this comparison. You don't get to choose what kind of mobile device other people u…

> "I don't give a crap about money. I despise intellectual property and proprietary software. I'll never sell a byte."

> "People buy smartphones because you need one to function in the modern society. They choose either Google or Apple. Neither of these corporations deserves all the credit they feel entitled to."

And you can sideload on Android, and they chose not-Android. and you could do so on Blackberry, and WindowsPhone, and Maemo and Symbian, and they all failed for not offering what people want. The only remaining good experience left is Apple, and you want to take that away as well. We know what that world looks like. It's not paradise of free choice, it's this: https://i.imgur.com/Ko5QcQl.jpg

And by "this", that's what an Android phone looks like. If you want to live in that world as a personal choice, you can easily not install the toolbars. But if there is an ecosystem you can buy into which avoids that, that should be an option. You want people who chose a limited experience to have the limits removed - but they chosing the limited experience in the first place, who are you to say that shouldn't be allowed?

> "Apple is successful by building great hardware and mostly good UX. Macs have had no app store for most of their history, and even though presently do have restrictions by default, there's a manual override to allow running unsigned or self-signed code."

Agreed, so people who want unsigned or self-signed code can buy macs, right? Choice. Nobody is forced to buy an iOS device, nobody is surprised when they can't side-load a program, because that has been the same for 10+ years and 10+ major iPhone versions, it's never been an expectation.

> "I'm having issue with there being a gatekeeper AT ALL."

I'm having issue with the idea that people willingly buying into an optional gatekeeper is some problem you think will be improved by forbidding people from having that option. The good it does is removing floods of junk from iOS users attention. It's like saying "My email isn't spam" and ignoring that spam is a huge problem and people willingly subscribe to gatekeepers at massive effort and cost industry-wide to try and protect themselves. So are robocalls, and dredmorbius suggests they might bring down the phone networks entirely[1] in the coming few years from a complete inability and unwillingness to defend itself. "Pay to send me an email or call me" would stop it in its tracks. Buying into a gatekeeper environment is another. "I should be able to bypass your spam filter because my emails aren't spam"?

[1] https://mastodon.cloud/@dredmorbius/102357651020681668

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#266

Post by moogleii »

harry8 wrote: post #168
rdw wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 30% cut was considered very good at the time. It was way better than the 50-90% cut that traditional publishers would take. A sibling comment notes that Steam charged 30% at the time (though some had better deals) but it's worth noting that Steam was not an open platform that anyone could publish on. Much like for consoles, to put a game on Steam you had to have a preexisting relationship with Valve, or try to de…

"The 30% cut was considered very good at the time." Let me fix this. There was a full range of views. Some considered the 30% cut to be good at the time, some didn't consider it much at all, some considered it to be a criminal abuse of market power. I remember commenting myself that microsoft would be crucified for attempting to tax everyone who wanted to write software for windows 30% of revenue. I don't recall anyo…

Microsoft didn't really have a comparable App Store at the time, not to mention, Apple hadn't really made a comparable App Store for the Mac yet either. The iPhone app model was more analogous to the business model of gaming consoles (and Steam), except with lower barrier to entry.

Today, I'm sure you could still publish independently of Steam... but you'd be at a disadvantage.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#267

Post by godelski »

haukilup wrote: post #264
TechBro8615 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked PDF (direct link for the truly lazy [0]) shows that every few minutes Apple sends binary data to its servers which includes the MAC address of nearby devices. (It's unclear if these are only devices on the same network, e.g. from arp, or any nearby devices that are broadcasting a static MAC address). Here, I'll even quote it for you. It's on page 7 at the bottom left, continuing on the top right: > However…

Is that in any way related to the Covid framework/protocol that Apple provides?

Probably not since from what I understand Google and Apple use the same protocol

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#268

Post by tehjoker »

amelius wrote: post #216
swiley wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always thought of them as "endpoints for deploying cooperate software into your life" but this is also a pretty good description.

The iPhone is basically a vending machine for entertainment, owned by Apple and paid for by you.

Often it is a slot machine as well.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#269

Post by TechBro8615 »

haukilup wrote: post #264
TechBro8615 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked PDF (direct link for the truly lazy [0]) shows that every few minutes Apple sends binary data to its servers which includes the MAC address of nearby devices. (It's unclear if these are only devices on the same network, e.g. from arp, or any nearby devices that are broadcasting a static MAC address). Here, I'll even quote it for you. It's on page 7 at the bottom left, continuing on the top right: > However…

Is that in any way related to the Covid framework/protocol that Apple provides?

Probably not. I've been out of the reverse engineering game for a long time, and I could be wrong, but I remember seeing this traffic circa 2015.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#270

Post by fapjacks »

doctor_eval wrote: post #154
fapjacks wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's nice of you to accept Apple's calling it "radio" but UWB is radar technology. Newer iPhones have radar built into them to make their location tracking more precise. Most people don't understand (or can't understand) the details, which is why the semantic load of calling UWB "radar" instead of "radio" is important for conveying its intended purpose.

The RA in RADAR stands for RAdio. It’s like saying “light pointer” instead of “laser pointer”. For most people the distinction is irrelevant.

You didn't understand what I said. I have an amateur extra license, and do a lot of volunteer work proselytizing for ham radio, working at field days, etc. For most people, there is a semantic payload with "radio" which conveys "communication" versus "radar" which conveys "tracking" (I imagine any semantic vector map would demonstrate this is true). The distinction is relevant, especially in the context of "your phone manufacturer is using this to improve its ability to track you in realtime". The UWB which newer iPhones use is not used for communication, because these frequencies are not suitable for that (yet?) in the environment. UWB is used for localization. Maybe there is some marketing material claiming that they're working on using it for "communication" but not anything like the conventional radio(s) the phone uses for communication.
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