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Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

swissinfo.ch

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Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#261

Post by throwaway473825 »

nickez wrote: post #70
esja wrote: post #8

Quite a few people who voted against this did so purely because they didn’t want private companies controlling the system. If the proposal had been for the government to issue and control the identities, it may well have passed.

In Sweden we have a company running the ID system and that works fine. The company is coowned by all the large banks afaik. I was really surprised at how far behind Switzerland is compared to Scandinavia when it comes to digitalisation. Being able to handle my life hassle free online instead of going to physical places (like post office, banks, gov office) is liberating. I also get all my bills digitally and all my r…

I live in Sweden. My bank (Swedbank) recently closed my BankID and told me that I either have to buy more services from them or look for another bank if I want to have an BankID (which is required for vaccination).

Yeah, it really works fine. Fortunately, it wasn't too difficult to find another bank that didn't want to blackmail me, but the system has such obvious flaws that it shouldn't exist.

To make matters worse, the current chairman of Swedbank is Göran Persson, a previous prime minister. I fear that there is some ugly corruption involved here.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#262

Post by Daho0n »

warent wrote: post #68
max_ wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really admire the swiss political system & culture. It's has all the modern postulates of liberty & governance that most countries are striving for without the "scam orchestration"

This seems to be the largely the case with scandinavian countries in general. I've been seriously considering leaving the USA permanently because I'm having a difficult time reconciling my morals and ideals with the taxes I pay. Ballots and debates aren't enough. I'd rather vote with my taxes and my feet, and start helping a county I believe in.

Norway would be the best bet IMO.

(I'm not Norwegian btw.)

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#263

Post by TheCoelacanth »

akvadrako wrote: post #117
buzzert wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4th amendment to the constitution? > The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Actually Roe vs Wade implied the right to privacy from the 14th amendment: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. The alternative "right to privacy" has been…

The 14th amendment is usually the basis of any case where a constitutional right binds a state government. Prior to its adoption, they were usually considered to only bind the federal government.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#264

Post by throwaway473825 »

emptysongglass wrote: post #194
kzrdude wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the danish NemId, how is it governed and owned, does anyone know?

Developed by Nets together with the banks similar to the Swedes. If you're looking for public ownership of the various organs and products that Danes interact with on a daily basis: it basically doesn't exist. Just about every software product at the municipal and state level is contracted out to an enormous private megalith that gets paid vast sums of money to execute. And they're nearly all Microsoft affiliate shop…

There's an important distinction between the systems in Sweden and Denmark. In Denmark, you don't need to have a relationship with a private bank to get NemID. The government also provides it.

In Sweden, you are absolutely reliant on private banks. This gives those select few banks a position of power which they can - and do - abuse.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#265

Post by yawaworht1978 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #76
layoutIfNeeded wrote: post #50

They are also incredibly xenophobic (i.e. Japanese levels).

> They are also incredibly xenophobic The Swiss are xenophobic? Eh? They welcome people from all over the world to come together to work towards peace and humanitarianism in their country. They host the only truly international humanitarian organisation in the world. They helped build many of the institutions that try to reduce conflict. Calling them xenophobic is bizarre.

Sorry to object, but you know nothing about Switzerland. You do not know how "humanitarian" they have been the the immigrants in the 70s and 80s. Or to the Jewish who tried to escape Germany. Read what happened to them, then come again with "humanitarian". The true original Swiss people are often classist and xenophobic.

They have come around a bit in the new millennium, but do not be naive. All the humanitarian projects are either tax evasion schemes or a PR job. Bit like when a horrible employer declares himself a philanthropist.

They are not saints, make no mistake, your view is a bit blurry, that is the effect when you swallow the Swiss PR pill.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#266

Post by specialist »

throwaway3535f wrote: post #245

I’m a bit sad the referendum passed as the law was creating a regulated environment were anyone could start an ID provider and other providers would be forced to interoperate. Basically it mandated a distributed protocol. The alternative to my dream of having a cooperative of my choice handling my metadata seems will be to have the state know everything about me. Let’s see how it will play out. Maybe we will put some…

The irony of privacy is that encrypting all data at rest (true privacy) requires ubiquitous identifiers. Meaning a central authority issuing those identifiers.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#267

Post by belorn »

nickez wrote: post #70
esja wrote: post #8

Quite a few people who voted against this did so purely because they didn’t want private companies controlling the system. If the proposal had been for the government to issue and control the identities, it may well have passed.

In Sweden we have a company running the ID system and that works fine. The company is coowned by all the large banks afaik. I was really surprised at how far behind Switzerland is compared to Scandinavia when it comes to digitalisation. Being able to handle my life hassle free online instead of going to physical places (like post office, banks, gov office) is liberating. I also get all my bills digitally and all my r…

> In Sweden we have a company running the ID system and that works fine. The company is coowned by all the large banks

Try to have anything to do with the government without a bank account. The processes and system are today so integrated that many aspect of being a citizen are today impossible beyond giving the power of attorney to someone who do have a bank account and then let them do it. (Not hypothetical as this was the recommendation given by försäkringskassan).

I would be much more happy with the system if the government operated a customer facing bank as a fallback, one which laws dictate so that all citizen critical functions are guarantied without a customer contract between a profit seeking company and a customer. It does not need to deal with loans, or give people interests, or handle stocks or any other aspects usually associated with banks. It just need to do basic banking for which everything else depend on in a cashless and internet based society.

Until then, what we have is the merge of private banks, beholden to non-elected owners, and government. It is very hassle free as long one don't mind the soft version corporatocracy.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#268

Post by [deleted] »

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #265
chrisseaton wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are also incredibly xenophobic The Swiss are xenophobic? Eh? They welcome people from all over the world to come together to work towards peace and humanitarianism in their country. They host the only truly international humanitarian organisation in the world. They helped build many of the institutions that try to reduce conflict. Calling them xenophobic is bizarre.

Sorry to object, but you know nothing about Switzerland. You do not know how "humanitarian" they have been the the immigrants in the 70s and 80s. Or to the Jewish who tried to escape Germany. Read what happened to them, then come again with "humanitarian". The true original Swiss people are often classist and xenophobic. They have come around a bit in the new millennium, but do not be naive. All the humanitarian proj…

[deleted]

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#269

Post by vinay427 »

oumua_don17 wrote: post #246
cmehdy wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which makes a lot of sense in Switzerland, since "the government is the people" is more true than in the overwhelming majority of countries on Earth. Pragmatic take from the Swiss as usual :) (said by a jealous French citizen)

AFAIK, Switzerland is the only country with direct democracy or ‘Govt is the people’. As you said overwhelming majority, are there any countries that have direct democracy or come close?

California (not a country, obviously) is otherwise virtually comparable with Switzerland in this respect. Full constitutional amendments and legislative vetoes can occur via referendum.

EDIT: In practice, larger cities in California seem to have a comparable number of referendums as well. Unfortunately, they're all bundled into an election every 1-2 years rather than the Swiss system of elections every 3-4 months. This has its upsides, mainly in turnout which is still low in much of Switzerland, but also means many "less-notable" issues often aren't discussed in CA to the same degree that they seem to be here.

Re: Switzerland votes against electronic ID system provided by private companies

#270

Post by vinay427 »

dheera wrote: post #33
xiphias2 wrote: post #2

Switzerland has this in its constitution: Article 13: Right to Privacy 1. All persons have the right to receive respect for their private and family life, home, and secrecy of the mails and telecommunications. 2. All persons have the right to be protected against the abuse of personal data. Also the constitution can be only changed by voting.

> All persons have the right to receive respect for their private and family life, home, and secrecy of the mails and telecommunications. I really wish the US had this. Here, even simple acts like registering to vote or getting a driver license, bank account, credit card means your personal residence gets leaked to spammers, scammers, data brokers, and eventually, stalkers. There really should be laws saying that per…

I get plenty of spam calls (EDIT: and mail) here in Switzerland as well. It seems only marginally lower than the number I got in the US, and that's in a much shorter time here. Anecdotally, they seem comparable in practice in my experience, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong if there's any sort of data here.
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