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“User engagement” is code for “addiction”

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Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#261

Post by Barrin92 »

loveistheanswer wrote: post #257
Barrin92 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not only do people in abusive relationships often have stockholm syndrome, many people are actually materially dependent on their partner, for example women who have stayed home a long time historically but also still today, and thus they literally cannot leave. Or they have children, or leaving might put others at risk. Point of working through the analogy being, even on an individual basis framing leaving a relatio…

>they literally cannot leave. Or they have children, or leaving might put others at risk. >Point of working through the analogy being, even on an individual basis framing leaving a relationship as some sort of arbitrary choice is kind of nonsensical Could you give some common examples where an individual "literally cannot leave" FB, or where leaving FB would put others at risk? The best example I could think of is a…

I can give you a few direct examples. I live in a condo. Our entire building management runs through a facebook group. My girlfriend works with kids whose schooling right now is managed through whatsapp. I know quite a lot of people who are required by their employer to maintain a facebook presence because that's how they get into contact with a lot of clients. For a lot of folks FB and affiliates have become part of the basic digital infrastructure.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#262

Post by loveistheanswer »

Barrin92 wrote: post #261
loveistheanswer wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they literally cannot leave. Or they have children, or leaving might put others at risk. >Point of working through the analogy being, even on an individual basis framing leaving a relationship as some sort of arbitrary choice is kind of nonsensical Could you give some common examples where an individual "literally cannot leave" FB, or where leaving FB would put others at risk? The best example I could think of is a…

I can give you a few direct examples. I live in a condo. Our entire building management runs through a facebook group. My girlfriend works with kids whose schooling right now is managed through whatsapp. I know quite a lot of people who are required by their employer to maintain a facebook presence because that's how they get into contact with a lot of clients. For a lot of folks FB and affiliates have become part of…

Thank you for the thought provoking responses.

>I know quite a lot of people who are required by their employer to maintain a facebook presence because that's how they get into contact with a lot of clients.

Being compelled to mix business with personal life like this seems quite objectionable indeed.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#263

Post by edmundsauto »

CivBase wrote: post #260
edmundsauto wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the people in charge of those companies understand the value in users returning to use their service. And that short term trickery isn’t really a good route to building value over decades, which is what these companies are eying. Can you give a concrete example of short term thinking that has surfaced in product? I see a lot of hand waving (in general, not from you) about BJ Fogg’s work, but I’d like to know…

The mobile games market is an excellent, concrete example of service providers which not only favor "short term trickery" over "long term quality", but actively reduce the long term quality of their services to engage in that trickery and are wildly successful for doing so. Modern mobile games are chuck full of time gates, grinds, fake currencies, and many other dark patterns designed to physiologically manipulate th…

Ahh, that is a great example. Zynga (when I was a game player) did this a lot. But they also strike me as materially different in behavior than the massive tech companies that often are labeled as manipulative.

No disagreement from me that games, like gambling, use this technique a ton. I’m just not sure this menta mode applies to the decisions made by big tech.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#264

Post by teddyh »

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #203
teddyh wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sell out, then they close for the day. Every year they take a two-month vacation. What is stopping their landlord from raising the rent, since they obviously have money to spare?

Principles? Morals? Ethics? The small things preventing humanity from murdering, raping, enslaving, and torturing one another. It's easy to forget that these exist and that everyone must always be on guard, defending the world against ones own baser instincts and defending oneself against humanity at larges baser instincts. As we collectively forget, or consciously ignore, our duty to one another we mortgage humaniti…

As far as I know, landlords are not known for possessing any of the qualities you list. Indeed, what is special and unusual about this situation might not be the bakery itself, but the landlord of that particular bakery. There might be thousands of such potential bakeries all over, but for the fact that the profits are extracted by the landlords, and this might be the normal state of things. We would have no way to tell.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#265

Post by pedalpete »

Demigod33 wrote: post #238
pedalpete wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unrelated to original thread - I find it interesting the way you approach this comment. You mention pricing almost as if you're apologizing. Your competitors, even if they are binge-focused, don't apologize for charging customers. They would never have a an advert that says "we've got this great course, but before you go check it out, I'll warn you, it costs money". I like your thinking of non-binge learning, and thi…

Do you mean the book by Kevin Maney, Al Ramadan et al.?

Yup, that's the one.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#266

Post by pedalpete »

gary_bernhardt wrote: post #149
pedalpete wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unrelated to original thread - I find it interesting the way you approach this comment. You mention pricing almost as if you're apologizing. Your competitors, even if they are binge-focused, don't apologize for charging customers. They would never have a an advert that says "we've got this great course, but before you go check it out, I'll warn you, it costs money". I like your thinking of non-binge learning, and thi…

I appreciate it. We've struggled with communicating the non-binge aspect, and usually approach it from the other side: by talking about reviews, spaced repetition, remembering, etc. But I think you're right that approaching it from the "non-binge" side is a good idea. Coincidentally, we're about to do a major landing page revision, so the timing is right to give that a try! As for apologizing for charging money... yo…

Cool, I'm not a marketing expert, but I've had a bit of experience in the past. I'd be happy to give you my thoughts if you want to run it by me. Details are in my profile.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#267

Post by chii »

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #203
teddyh wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sell out, then they close for the day. Every year they take a two-month vacation. What is stopping their landlord from raising the rent, since they obviously have money to spare?

Principles? Morals? Ethics? The small things preventing humanity from murdering, raping, enslaving, and torturing one another. It's easy to forget that these exist and that everyone must always be on guard, defending the world against ones own baser instincts and defending oneself against humanity at larges baser instincts. As we collectively forget, or consciously ignore, our duty to one another we mortgage humaniti…

> The small things preventing humanity from murdering, raping, enslaving, and torturing one another

nothing, except for the threat of punishment from the law - which mostly works.

Why do you think in a country where the law enforcement failed (such as a failed state) breaks down in to chaos so easily? Where's the "Principles, Morals, Ethics" then?

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#268

Post by latexr »

teddyh wrote: post #264
Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Principles? Morals? Ethics? The small things preventing humanity from murdering, raping, enslaving, and torturing one another. It's easy to forget that these exist and that everyone must always be on guard, defending the world against ones own baser instincts and defending oneself against humanity at larges baser instincts. As we collectively forget, or consciously ignore, our duty to one another we mortgage humaniti…

As far as I know, landlords are not known for possessing any of the qualities you list. Indeed, what is special and unusual about this situation might not be the bakery itself, but the landlord of that particular bakery. There might be thousands of such potential bakeries all over, but for the fact that the profits are extracted by the landlords, and this might be the normal state of things. We would have no way to t…

> As far as I know, landlords are not known for possessing any of the qualities you list.

Landlords are people and subject to the same qualities and defects as other humans.

Perhaps they are “not know” for the positive because people make a kerfuffle when things go badly, not when they go well.

Here’s a positive story of a landlord having a major positive impact on hundreds of tenants: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/nyregion/coronavirus-nyc-...

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#269

Post by latexr »

chii wrote: post #267
Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Principles? Morals? Ethics? The small things preventing humanity from murdering, raping, enslaving, and torturing one another. It's easy to forget that these exist and that everyone must always be on guard, defending the world against ones own baser instincts and defending oneself against humanity at larges baser instincts. As we collectively forget, or consciously ignore, our duty to one another we mortgage humaniti…

> The small things preventing humanity from murdering, raping, enslaving, and torturing one another nothing, except for the threat of punishment from the law - which mostly works. Why do you think in a country where the law enforcement failed (such as a failed state) breaks down in to chaos so easily? Where's the "Principles, Morals, Ethics" then?

> nothing, except for the threat of punishment from the law

You’ll be happy to know (I hope) that plenty of us (perhaps even the majority!) don’t have any intention to murder and rape, and it’s neither law nor religion which compels us to be minimally decent towards others: https://youtube.com/watch?v=AwebTX3rk3E

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#270

Post by hashkb »

hashkb wrote: post #116
polynomial wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Social media is the cigarette of our generation. Except with cigarettes we could point to the very real physical harms of lung cancer, emphysema, etc. With social media we just have vaguely sinister warnings about addiction and mental health issues, which can seem paltry in comparison. The former was obviously a health problem that was deranging people's bodies, whereas the later is seen largely as a social, not a…

It took a really long time for us to realize that. Doctors used to push cigs.

Thanks for the downvotes. Here's some proof if you think I'm incorrect: https://www.healio.com/news/hematology-oncology/20120325/cig...

Cigarettes were also, and still are, a social problem as well as a health problem. Just like social media.

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