Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main • Hacker News Board

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#261

Post by zaksoup » Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 6:58 AM UTC

rzz3 wrote: post #233

zaksoup wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t really get this sentiment. Are you so absolutely dedicated to the phrase “falling on deaf ears” that if somebody says to you “hey, that phrase might hurt somebody’s feelings, can you use an alternative” you take it as some sort of massive imposition on your life? I don’t understand why small changes that can be done in kindness are seen as so inconvenient as to be worth this level of rejection. I’m hearing im…

> I don’t understand why small changes that can be done in kindness are seen as so inconvenient as to be worth this level of rejection. I think one key disconnect is that some people form complete sentences in their head before they speak, and have an opportunity to effectively “edit them”, as if you would read and edit an email before sending. Others, like myself, communicate a thought directly from mouth to brain.…

I really appreciate your thoughtful take here. One thing I think is important to note is that I don't want, and I don't think any hearing impaired person would want (though I can't speak for all of them) for you to spend really any time feeling guilty about a potential offense you might have caused.

What I'm advocating for is radical compassion and empathy. When you hear somebody say "this thing can hurt me" worry less about all the times you were involved in that, and consider more how you can help folks avoid that harm in the future.

That's not to say we should ever introspect. I noticed that with a friend of mine who recently came out as trans I was still often using gendered language "dude, man, etc" from before they came out, even if I usually got their pronouns right. They didn't ask me, but the introspection I was doing prompted me to offer them an apology and commit to doing better about those kinds of things. That has brought us closer and given me a better perspective for being a good friend and ally to them.

I don't think anybody thinks you're trying to be a jerk, or intentionally seeking to hurt people's feelings. What I'm reacting to is a vocal minority of folks, often in tech, who seem to react to being told "Hey, this thing sometimes hurts my feelings when I notice it" with "How dare you accuse me of being literally Darth Vader. This is THOUGHT POLICING."

Just... try your best to be kind to people. If that means you're the CEO of github and you can change "master" to "main" why the heck wouldn't you?

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#262

Post by zaksoup » Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 7:01 AM UTC

eloisius wrote: post #60

zaksoup wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t really get this sentiment. Are you so absolutely dedicated to the phrase “falling on deaf ears” that if somebody says to you “hey, that phrase might hurt somebody’s feelings, can you use an alternative” you take it as some sort of massive imposition on your life? I don’t understand why small changes that can be done in kindness are seen as so inconvenient as to be worth this level of rejection. I’m hearing im…

If “small” change offends me because of my tiny stature would you please consider being more precise and saying “inconsequential” or “trivial” change instead of making a spatial analogy for its magnitude?

I said this to another commenter who pointed out that "walk in my shoes" could be excluding language to folks who are paraplegic, I'm honestly happy to hear this feedback and consider using more inclusive language.

Frankly this is good feedback simply from a precise communication perspective. We often use special metaphors when we mean to describe complexity, and "trivial" would more easily communicate what I meant regardless.

This came up recently in my romantic relationship: I used "small" to describe an emotional feeling I was having and it did hurt the feelings of my partner, who is short. They didn't like that size was used to describe a negative emotion and I appreciated that they shared that with me and gave me an opportunity to think about a more precise way of communicating my feelings that didn't connect a negative connotation to something they identified with.

Why is this so hard to understand that I would seek to live this way? I think we should be excited to practice radical compassion with each other.

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#263

Post by zaksoup » Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 7:03 AM UTC

tachyonbeam wrote: post #17

zaksoup wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t really get this sentiment. Are you so absolutely dedicated to the phrase “falling on deaf ears” that if somebody says to you “hey, that phrase might hurt somebody’s feelings, can you use an alternative” you take it as some sort of massive imposition on your life? I don’t understand why small changes that can be done in kindness are seen as so inconvenient as to be worth this level of rejection. I’m hearing im…

I think you make a genuine argument with respect to "falling on deaf ears".

Thank you! Given that, why is it so difficult to assume that folks might be making a genuine argument with respect to "master/main"?

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#264

Post by eloisius » Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 8:04 AM UTC

zaksoup wrote: post #262

eloisius wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If “small” change offends me because of my tiny stature would you please consider being more precise and saying “inconsequential” or “trivial” change instead of making a spatial analogy for its magnitude?

I said this to another commenter who pointed out that "walk in my shoes" could be excluding language to folks who are paraplegic, I'm honestly happy to hear this feedback and consider using more inclusive language. Frankly this is good feedback simply from a precise communication perspective. We often use special metaphors when we mean to describe complexity, and "trivial" would more easily communicate what I meant r…

Yep. My comment was 90% tongue-in-cheek but ‘small’ in the way you used it also accurately describes my lived experience with being small: unimportant, you probably won’t even notice, easy to ignore, etc. However, it’s not a big deal. If you want to strip all the analogies, flavor, and richness out of the English that you use until you you’re left with some hyper-literal newspeak go ahead. I, and judging by this thread many others, am not interested in devoting half of my brainpower to self-censoring in real-time as I try to mutter my way through giving a presentation or speak to a group.

Being conscious of your partners emotions and not minimizing their feelings is one thing. Being offended by phrases like “a little problem” or “a big deal” in public is ridiculous and laughable.

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#265

Post by zaksoup » Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 5:04 PM UTC

eloisius wrote: post #264

zaksoup wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said this to another commenter who pointed out that "walk in my shoes" could be excluding language to folks who are paraplegic, I'm honestly happy to hear this feedback and consider using more inclusive language. Frankly this is good feedback simply from a precise communication perspective. We often use special metaphors when we mean to describe complexity, and "trivial" would more easily communicate what I meant r…

Yep. My comment was 90% tongue-in-cheek but ‘small’ in the way you used it also accurately describes my lived experience with being small: unimportant, you probably won’t even notice, easy to ignore, etc. However, it’s not a big deal. If you want to strip all the analogies, flavor, and richness out of the English that you use until you you’re left with some hyper-literal newspeak go ahead. I, and judging by this thre…

I think maybe we're a bit too far afield. I don't think people are talking about phrases like "a little problem" or "a big deal". Do you take issue with the point I raised about "falling on deaf ears?" Why are we talking about hypothetical complaints people might have about the word small when we have real examples about the use of "falling on deaf ears" or "master" terminology in tech.

I think people are making good faith attempts to communicate that those phrases hurt their feelings. I think it's not wrong to make a good faith attempt to avoid hurting people's feelings. I think complaining about a hypothetical slippery slope misses the point.

> I am not interested in devoting half of my brainpower to self-censoring

But we already do this. You don't just blurt out everything you think. If you walk by somebody in the supermarket who smells strongly of perfume do you just shout "you stink"? When you're speaking to a group you're probably picking appropriate language to use. You're not dropping a bunch of f-bombs at work and probably not using a ton of programmer-specific technical jargon or metaphors with your friends who aren't in tech.

When one of my closest friends from childhood came out as trans it took me a month to stop using the wrong pronouns for them. I had to think about it in the moment... until I didn't anymore because I built up a habit and got used to it. Now it takes no brainpower at all. This is normal. This is how normal habit-building works.

> Being conscious of your partners emotions...

But not my coworkers? Not my black peers? Not a potential hearing-impaired contributor to one of my oss projects on github?

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#266

Post by IshKebab » Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 7:13 PM UTC

Khaine wrote: post #258

IshKebab wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably people thought about it for 2 seconds and realised it isn't true.

Maybe they should have thought about it some more, like the stoics: "The tranquility that comes when you stop caring what they say. Or think, or do. Only what you do." - Marcus Aureliu "When someone is properly grounded in life, they shouldn’t have to look outside themselves for approval." - Epictetus "Learn to be indifferent to what makes no difference." - Marcus Aurelius

An unrealistic goal. No man is an island.

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#267

Post by leshenka » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 2:15 AM UTC

umvi wrote: post #142

wadkar wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am happy to see this. You say bullied into compliance but all I see is a community consciously putting efforts to become more inclusive. It may not be that big of a deal for you but it is a big deal for those who don’t share the same worldview as you. Are your principals so low that you wouldn’t accommodate change of language and behavior to be more welcoming of others? What do you think about people who curse like…

> but all I see is a community consciously putting efforts to become more inclusive In my opinion, agitating for these types of changes makes tech communities more polarized since you are now making things that didn't used to be political, highly politicized. It's not clear to me how changing the default branch name in a version control system and similar "inclusivity changes" makes the tech communities more inclusiv…

> more polarized since you are now making things that didn't used to be political, highly politicized.

I mean, how many people are __actually__ offended by master/slave terminology? 1%? 2%?

Now how many people are offended by this change, how many think that this is useless waste of time, how many think that this is tech industry being once again bullied into compliance over nonsense and it's all one sneaky slippery slope? I don't know, but it seems like a half or at least a third.

These changes with this reasoning are not making it more inclusive, they make it more exclusive.

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#268

Post by richard_todd » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 3:32 AM UTC

zaksoup wrote: post #260

richard_todd wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By your logic, how can you can casually say "walk in my shoes," when you can be sure it bugs people confined to wheelchairs? Do you owe us all an apology and a promise to never use that common and easily-understood idiom again? I don't think you do... but do you think you do? If not, why not?

Well, Honestly, this is a great point. However, I don't think I owe you all an apology, and you'll notice that I never asked anybody for an apology for using "fall on deaf ears" or anything else. I did say we should practice radical compassion and if somebody says to us "hey this phrase bugs me or hurts my feelings" there's very few reasons I can imagine why we shouldn't accept that and consider using different langu…

I totally agree with you in the context of small settings. There, it's correct to avoid phrases that are harmful to people, once you are aware of the issue they have. That's just part of not being an asshole.

But in public forums--and relevant to the article--public software/documentation, I believe the number of problematic phrases approaches 100%. Even referencing "years from now" can bring a Stage-4 cancer patient to tears--100% real pain I have seen with my own eyes--and there are many people in that state. Yet, obviously we have to accept that we will cause those people pain and go ahead referencing the future that was taken from them.

Therefore, to me, the only social contract that "works" in public is that we all try not to offend, and anyone who gets hurt by everyday language realizes their reaction is mostly an internal issue, and no harm was meant or could be reasonably avoided.

I'd expect that latitude of the wheelchair-bound person who winces at references to walking, and from the developer who thinks of slavery at the sight of a "master branch." The tinge they felt was real, but in my view it is not our responsibility to avoid it in a public space. As a result, I must disagree with the handful of advocates who want to change every git repository on the planet. But maybe I am in the wrong. It is just my opinion.

Thanks for your reply. I always worry these topics will get unnecessarily heated.

(edit: removed a bunch of text that was just reiterating stuff I already said).

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#269

Post by eloisius » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 9:59 AM UTC

zaksoup wrote: post #265

eloisius wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. My comment was 90% tongue-in-cheek but ‘small’ in the way you used it also accurately describes my lived experience with being small: unimportant, you probably won’t even notice, easy to ignore, etc. However, it’s not a big deal. If you want to strip all the analogies, flavor, and richness out of the English that you use until you you’re left with some hyper-literal newspeak go ahead. I, and judging by this thre…

I think maybe we're a bit too far afield. I don't think people are talking about phrases like "a little problem" or "a big deal". Do you take issue with the point I raised about "falling on deaf ears?" Why are we talking about hypothetical complaints people might have about the word small when we have real examples about the use of "falling on deaf ears" or "master" terminology in tech. I think people are making good…

You think we’re too far afield now, I think we were several levels ago. Tomato, tomato.

Re: Update to Git changes the default of init.defaultBranch to main

#270

Post by Okawari » Sat, Nov 21, 2020, 7:47 PM UTC

PretzelFisch wrote: post #13

If the name change builds a larger, diverse, empathetic community. What have you or I lost?

I'm not entirely convinced convinced it will make for a larger nor a more empathetic community.

I think these kinds of changes only makes it harder to enter the community, by adding more landmines to discourse and saying that there is a right and wrong way to talk regardless of intent and context that you need to know regardless of if you come from a background where these words are as heavily loaded as other places.

It also creates a community which seemingly supports and defends personal attacks against people whenever the mob finds something new to hate on. For example in the case of Rubocop, when all of the sudden cop was a loaded word. The developer seemingly got harassed when he didn't want to change the name.

I think we are losing more than we are gaining by going through with this. Not because of master or main but because we are seemingly not assuming best intentions when communicating anymore.