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Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#261

Post by MauranKilom »

unmole wrote: post #72
MauranKilom wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that Matt Walker has fallen from grace, at least on HN. His book "Why we sleep" used to be widely recommended around here, but there appear to be very serious scientific shortcomings affecting some of the information he presents. See e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850 That is not to say he's wrong on every count, but take what he says with a huge grain of "might have been invented/fudged and then…

You might be interested in a counterpoint from someone who (claims to) study sleep: https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/dwtr0m/matt...

Yes, I have seen that. The author of the article has also posted a refutation of the counterpoints, with no substantive replies by Kinkajoe.

The overarching point that guzey makes is "the book is not scientifically sound, despite Matthew Walker plainly stating in the introduction that it would be". Arguing that Walker's claims are "hyperbolic, [but] within reason", that it's ok because "it is a book intended for the public" or that all this is "justified by the important message he is trying to convey" is completely besides the point! That may all be true and not change the needle one bit on "scientifically accurate".

Making up unsubstantiated claims to ""convey a message"" in a book and then later citing the book in your own scientific papers is the exact opposite of academic integrity. Hence my advice to take Walker's work with an appropriate grain of salt.

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#262

Post by ciceryadam »

BurningFrog wrote: post #102
reidacdc wrote: post #15

The article is mostly suitably modest about mechanisms, focusing on the epidemiology of the observed effects, and it's more or less obvious to me that the transitions are disruptive to everyone, and especially so to sensitive individuals. But there's also a bit in the answer to the fourth question (about long-term vs short-term impacts) that mentions effects of "chronic circadian misalignment". I've seen this a few t…

15 degrees is the the size a timezone "should" be, since 360°/24h = 15 degrees per hour. The Western European time zone ia about 33 degrees wide, from Spain to Poland. Spain is about 2 hours off their natural time..

Spain is in the wrong timezone for seven decades, thanks to general Franco - https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2013/11/30/244995264/...

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#263

Post by tom_ »

ghaff wrote: post #220
tom_ wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like DST too. (I'm at 55.4° N.) It would probably be a bit much in the winter for many, though, as daylight here would end up something like 9 am-6 pm. Very dark in the mornings, and you don't get much in the way of extra useful evening times.

The biggest win with DST is probably in the 40s of latitude or so. A lot further south and you don't have as much variation of light across the year so you might as well pick a suitable timezone and stick with it. A lot further north and there just isn't enough light in the winter to effectively use on a workday if you're indoors and there's lots of light in the summer so picking the ideal wakeup time isn't a big dea…

Indeed... where I am, over winter, it's generally daylight for, like, 8-9 hours. (Winter solstice is 7.5 hours daylight.) So pick your poison! I know what I like (which is to start work whenever, but at least leave when it was light within living memory), but it's always going to suck, at least a bit, whatever you do.

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#264

Post by shirro »

I know that most tech forums are overwhelmingly against DST. Not sure if there might not be a US bias as well But I enjoy the advantages. Perhaps because I live in a comparatively well organised country but I have never had an issue with technology. My phone and computer update correctly.

The benefits in summer are fantastic. I love having the time outdoors in the evening. Family gatherings. Not having to cook bbq in the dark. Sports. If we kept DST permanent year round to keep those benefits then the kids would be cycling to school in the dark in winter. It is such a small adjustment to improve quality of life. I have never understood why it is so unpopular. It might be particularly favourable at my latitude. I get why people near the equator would not want it.

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#265

Post by [deleted] »

shirro wrote: post #264

I know that most tech forums are overwhelmingly against DST. Not sure if there might not be a US bias as well But I enjoy the advantages. Perhaps because I live in a comparatively well organised country but I have never had an issue with technology. My phone and computer update correctly. The benefits in summer are fantastic. I love having the time outdoors in the evening. Family gatherings. Not having to cook bbq in…

[deleted]

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#266

Post by qes »

t-writescode wrote: post #236
ghaff wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I actually did mean latitude because that affects the length of the day at different times of the year. On the equator, there's not much point. Presumably, you're in a timezone that makes general sense relative to typical work patterns so that the sun is up during your awake time. Conversely, live in northern Alaska and you probably have almost too much sun in the summer so no need to optimize and it's dark enoug…

To echo in as a person in Washington, I would definitely prefer my summer mornings to start later and my winter evenings to end later. It has been getting dark at 5, tomorrow it will be dark by 4.

MN here. I would be much happier with Daylight time year round as well.

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#267

Post by qes »

jibbit wrote: post #101
Pandavonium wrote: post #3

Having young kids, I'd love to see the changing of the clocks go the way of the dinosaurs. I don't care which way, just pick one and stick with it.

Do children not need more sleep in winter, like adults?

Yes, and precisely on November 1st this year my child will start sleeping exactly one hour longer in the morning, because it is now official of course. Huge /s, obviously.

Whether or not children need more sleep in the winter, they'll by and large be waking up at about the same unshifted time tomorrow as they did today.

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#268

Post by mindcrime »

Don't ditch it, make it permanent (year round). OK, that's purely a personal bias given that no system is going to make everybody happy. But I expect I'm not alone in preferring to have more daylight hours "after work" to allow for various outdoor activities during that time, and suchlike.

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#269

Post by varispeed »

jesterpm wrote: post #229
varispeed wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that I didn't think "sleep earlier" through. I wouldn't be able to do that easily. I can't go around getting to sleep at other time than 3am, it seems like my body is fixed to that hour.

Now is that 3am standard time or DST?

I realised I should have added that. It's 3am DST, so it is a bit easier for me now that time changed.

Re: Governments Worldwide Consider Ditching Daylight Saving Time

#270

Post by throw0101a »

Zak wrote: post #251
throw0101a wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So you want to abolish time zones": * https://qntm.org/abolish * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8902765 (2015)

While the article makes points that would be very good in a different era, if I want to know what time it is in Melbourne, I type "Melbourne time" into Google and it tells me. If I want to know whether it's daytime, I type "Melbourne sunrise" into Google and it tells me. Abolishing timezones is much more doable now than at any point since their invention, however the motivation to do it may also be reduced since I ca…

> Abolishing timezones is much more doable now than at any point since their invention,

I think you have it backwards: this is an argument for keeping timezones.

If you we get rid of timezones, and everyone lives in UTC, then you already know the time in Melbourne: it's the same as where you live. But that does not tell you the human schedule in Melbourne.

Right now, you can probably guess that business hours are "9-5" (09-17h), and so you can do a TZ lookup to see if people are in the office.

If you get rid of TZs, and the time is 22:15Z, what does that mean elsewhere in the planet? Is that business hours for LA, NY, Paris, Mumbai, Tokyo, or Auckland? Where is that when people people are sleeping?

We know what daylight hours in the local timezone are 8-8 (08-20h), so after doing a Google TZ search we know if someone is likely to be asleep or not.

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