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A case for using punctuation in Slack

blog.mitchjlee.com

261–270 of 274 posts

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#261
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think calling it a negative is overstating it, but it's what people go to because we don't really have a word for it. It's more like, an "I'm-putting-my-foot-down", don't argue with me, extra bit of finality. Kind of like a parent telling something to their kid with an air of authority, or the kid shutting down when the parent isn't accepting what they're saying. For me, this started in the early 2000s with SMS, an…

Or it's like you're ending a sentence the way you always do. I think it's like that.

You have it completely backwards: "the way I always do" is chat-based. Has been for over a decade, even at work, where we barely use email. HN is the exception.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#262
post #209
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An example is responding back to a message with "Ok.". I see many over, say, 50 do this much more often, but to many under, say 30, this is taken as very passive aggressive. Definitely have experienced this. > shear sheer > What one things is clear communication with no ambiguity, another might disagree. thinks > todays today's > age combined with the lines being blurred between work and home makes age, combined wi…

Sorry, the last few corrections didn’t make any sense even after correction.

Muphry's law in action. On the second-to-last, they moved a comma (wrongly), and completely missed the major typo (possibly just autocorrected back to the wrong thing). It should be: "over, say, 50 yo" ("yo" being short for "years old"), and the other half should always have a comma after "30" (the one after "say" is optional depending on where they put pauses when they speak).

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#263
post #262
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, the last few corrections didn’t make any sense even after correction.

Muphry's law in action. On the second-to-last, they moved a comma (wrongly), and completely missed the major typo (possibly just autocorrected back to the wrong thing). It should be: "over, say, 50 yo" ("yo" being short for "years old"), and the other half should always have a comma after "30" (the one after "say" is optional depending on where they put pauses when they speak).

Here is the original text:

> I see many over, say, 50 do this much more often

Here is your 'corrected' version:

> I see many over, say, 50 yo this much more often

Any-way, i was indiccating the nead for conssisstency, not absulute corectness,,,

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#264
post #182
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An example is responding back to a message with "Ok.". I see many over, say, 50 do this much more often, but to many under, say 30, this is taken as very passive aggressive. Definitely have experienced this. > shear sheer > What one things is clear communication with no ambiguity, another might disagree. thinks > todays today's > age combined with the lines being blurred between work and home makes age, combined wi…

> passive-aggressive Well, you weren't lying...

Irony is in the eye of beholder

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#265
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An example is responding back to a message with "Ok.". I see many over, say, 50 do this much more often, but to many under, say 30, this is taken as very passive aggressive. Definitely have experienced this. > shear sheer > What one things is clear communication with no ambiguity, another might disagree. thinks > todays today's > age combined with the lines being blurred between work and home makes age, combined wi…

Correcting someone’s English is usually seen as a sign of social posturing, because higher education is often related to someone’s self-perception of social status ranking. It takes a extremely skilled approach to do it without causing offence. It is especially poor form on HN, because you cannot know whether English is their second language, or whether there are other reasons for mistakes (such as being in a hurry,…

Sorry, it was just too hard to pass up the irony embedded in this sentence:

"What one things is clear communication with no ambiguity, another might disagree."

> It is especially poor form on HN

I totally get that I was being annoying. At same time, if there's anywhere one can indulge in the art of being overly pedantic, is it not here?

> having dyslexia, or having a disability

In that case, I would feel bad for jokingly correcting them. Yes, it is hard to know the person behind the keyboard.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correcting someone’s English is usually seen as a sign of social posturing, because higher education is often related to someone’s self-perception of social status ranking. It takes a extremely skilled approach to do it without causing offence. It is especially poor form on HN, because you cannot know whether English is their second language, or whether there are other reasons for mistakes (such as being in a hurry,…

As an ESL speaker, I appreciate people who make an effort to correct me.

> As an ESL speaker, I appreciate people who make an effort to correct me.

A flawless sentence!

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#267
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correcting someone’s English is usually seen as a sign of social posturing, because higher education is often related to someone’s self-perception of social status ranking. It takes a extremely skilled approach to do it without causing offence. It is especially poor form on HN, because you cannot know whether English is their second language, or whether there are other reasons for mistakes (such as being in a hurry,…

I see the issue as more pretentious than anything else -- I know how to spell correctly, I have fucking spellcheck just like you do, but I don't give enough of a damn to go back through and right click every dumb typo and issue; especially when im typing on a phone or a shitty chat app with random delays If the only thing you got from my whole post is my missed period, especially if my post was a response/argument to…

> if you can't even be assed to type your name properly, why should I bother with your 50 page paper?

There has to be line somewhere though...

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#268
post #27

I feel like (so, of course, this is how I use instant messaging) periods at the end of a message suggest the logical conclusion of a thought, and are far too formal to use with every message. Email, sure, but not chat. (I do use question marks and capitalize in general, but periods in particular seem strange to me.)

Could you explain this more because it's completely foreign to me. For me a period is the end of a sentence. It has nothing to do with ending the message I'm trying to get across. Is this a cultural or generational or professional field difference? I'd never heard of the idea that a period would be too formal in any context.

I am about as young as a full time enterprise employee can be, and I find this thread fascinating.

Because while I totally agree with the individual that you are replying too, I TOTALLY see how it could seem ridiculous to someone with the periods-end-sentences perspective.

Let me try and come up with an ideal example. Consider this IM to a friendly teammate concerning an important (but not critical) meeting:

> did we get everything sorted out for the meeting this afternoon? we cant screw it up again

> Did we get everything sorted out for the meeting this afternoon? We can't screw it up again

> Did we get everything sorted out for the meeting this afternoon? We can't screw it up again.

In my world, the first two communicate pretty much the same thing. In the first example, you could probably even replace the question mark with a comma. I would likely send the second message, as I prefer descriptive, detail-adding punctuation. I would be less likely to send the third message to a young coworker because it seems standoffish.

Having said all that, any of the three messages would suffice. Someone mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but we - or at least the younger generation - have all become quite good at code switching. Crazy times

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#269
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but how do you feel about this? A laughing emoji would let us know that you think it's funny that people are this inarticulate, although it'd be a touch condescending. An eye-roll emoji would indicate a frustration with the problem, suggesting that it personally affects you in some way — perhaps your relatives are using too many emojis and it irritates you personally. A frown emoji, meanwhile, would suggest a mor…

I appreciate the response, and the emphasis on adding emotional context in a shorthand. However: - There are over 3,000 emojis defined in unicode, which is a very large vocabulary in which to become expert. - There is no well-defined meaning for any of the emojis, even the "simple" common ones. One must try to infer from shared context what the sender means. This is fraught with error opportunities. - They mean diffe…

> There are over 3,000 emojis defined in unicode, which is a very large vocabulary in which to become expert.

Most of those emoji aren't commonly used. There's a falafel emoji; no one's going around adding a falafel to the end of their messages trying to impart some hidden meaning.

> There is no well-defined meaning for any of the emojis, even the "simple" common ones.

There's also no well-defined meaning to a shrug or an eye-roll, but it's still a useful way of communicating emotion. Semantically, an emoji isn't used like a word. It's used like a gesture or facial expression. In practice, the message is usually quite clear — clearer, in fact, than if an emoji hadn't been used, since in the absence of tone-of-voice and body language text can itself create ambiguity.

> They mean different things to different subgroups, and act as an "in-group" credential in many cases.

Do you have an example of an emoji meaning different things to different groups? In my experience they have a pretty consistent meaning across our culture — even the more abstract ones, like an upside-down smile. The only barrier is "whether or not you're familiar with the typical meaning," and that's the case for any expression or colloquialism. If I say "they're like two peas in a pod" and you have no idea what that means, that doesn't mean it's an in-group signifier. Granted, familiarity with emojis correlates with age, but that's the same with any linguistic shift.

> They are visually very indistinct, and can be difficult to distinguish one from another for people who have less than perfect vision, or color-blindness.

I'm sure there are accessibility options which people can configure on their phones to minimize this. Large-text mode, for instance, or a high-contrast emoji font. Text itself is a medium which isn't very accessible to vision-impaired people, and we have developed solutions for that.

> For people with autism or other non-neurotypical processing they can be completely unintelligible, rendering the communication even less successful than "traditional" language.

Autistic people also have trouble understanding the meaning of facial expressions and of metaphors sometimes, but that doesn't mean that those shouldn't be used in conversation. It just means that everyone should know their audience.

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I don't think you've raised any serious practical issues — they seem to be all special cases, such as "what if you're talking to an autistic person or a blind person or an older person." Under those circumstances I would communicate differently, same as if I were speaking to a deaf person, or emailing a blind person, or talking to someone with poor English skills. There is no universally-viable way of communicating, but emoji typically reduce ambiguity and add layers of expression to a message, so in most cases they're a good choice.

Re: A case for using punctuation in Slack

#270
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds highly anecdotal: I am nearing 40 myself and have a bunch of 40+ colleagues, yet I rarely see them use ellipsis! So in order to avoid throwing your anecdata altogether, how many people of each age group did you communicate with using text form?

You are correct in that it is anecdotal, but across the board among those I interact with it has seemed to reign true. And from those my age I talk to they seem to mostly agree. It could also be a case of when I do see it used regardless of age, it appears to either be overused, or rarely used, and overuse tends to lean older.

I had the same observation years ago. Like 2001. Folks that were 40+ at the time used ellipsis for pause or dramatic effect vastly more than the younger, tech savvy kids at the time. I've been downvoted previously for the observation. :shrug:
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