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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#261

Post by 627467 »

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Several have mentioned that contemporary tech workers (mostly?) are privileged and have leverage in negotiations that allows them to individually gain what others in other industry can only get through unions. Part of that leverage comes from having lots of options. And why is there lots of options? Because "anyone" can start a tech company. The main mean of production of a tech outfit is the tech workers themselves.

Companies don't own the workers.

A steelworker can only do what they are skillfully specialized to do by using capital goods own by the company. Hence they can't negotiate with their feet (leaving) while a tech worker can.

Tech workers can work (remotely) for virtually any company in the world.

A farm worker can't.

All this may change in the future, but with some privileged tech workers (I'm not one of them) being able to retire in their 30s and 40s now I don't see why as a whole the industry is incentivized to unionize.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#262

Post by whywhywhywhy »

LatteLazy wrote: post #234
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

I've always done well by being judged and rewarded as an individual. I've been on teams with people who were lazy or entitled or just bad at their job and didn't care enough to change. I don't want negotiate as a block with those people because if get less of I did. And frankly, I'd rather not work with them at all, because they're just a pain in the arse to deal with. I think unions make sense when every worker is b…

>I've always done well by being judged and rewarded as an individual

It doesn't surprise me too much that this union talk is coming from places like Kickstarter, I mean as an individual engineer at Kickstarter what could you really do to elevate yourself, the site is a solved problem.

Unless they have an interest in branching out into a new product you have very little opportunity to rise above the rest of the team just maintaining the site. The only people who are going to be causing that company to make more money are outside the engineering team and the engineering team are going to be being looked at constantly as a cost they need to reduce.

Most ambitious people would realize this and that they need to move on to somewhere with more opportunity where there is a chance for their individual contribution to shine.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#263

Post by LatteLazy »

leto_ii wrote: post #251
LatteLazy wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the political power argument is both the best and worst reason for union membership: In my opinion, democracy is basically dead unless you can raise a lot of cash and use it to force your issues. So you're either disenfranchised or you're a billionaire or you're part of a group like a union that can raise cash and use it for things you care about. That's a good argument to be in a union. Or it would be, excep…

> We haven't had pro-worker legislation in decades as far as I can tell. I don't know why unions are so bad at this as (at least IMHO) it seems like a core responsibility AND a major selling point. Unions were never as powerful as the capitalist elites. All worker rights were hard-won (often with the price of life) and there has always been a lot of counter-pressure from capitalists. For a while, following the New De…

I'd agree with all of this, except maybe saying English speaking instead of western world.

But here we are. Joining a union won't help me in the local or immediate sense and it won't change politics. I don't like the economic or political system. But with zero options to change it, I have to pursue whatever will get me the best return for my efforts. That isn't unionisation sadly. Its a 19th century solution that doesn't seem to fit 21st century problems. :(

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#264

Post by lexs »

patorjk wrote: post #120
matsemann wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Or could it be like a judge in sports, you only notice it when the judge makes the wrong call, but all the correct ones are ignored? My union in Europe doesn't really do that much in my day-to-day work. As a skilled worker in demand we're generally treated very well. But for the broader questions they are nice to have. For instance th…

> Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? I worked at Northrop Grumman a decade ago as a developer and a lot of the non-tech people were unionized. There were certain things I was not allowed to do because it was the job of some union person. For example, moving equipment was prohibited. When I changed desks I wasn't allowed to move my phone, PC, or monitors, I had to let t…

Since we are exchanging anecdotes, this also happened at my non-union job.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#265

Post by LatteLazy »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #262
LatteLazy wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always done well by being judged and rewarded as an individual. I've been on teams with people who were lazy or entitled or just bad at their job and didn't care enough to change. I don't want negotiate as a block with those people because if get less of I did. And frankly, I'd rather not work with them at all, because they're just a pain in the arse to deal with. I think unions make sense when every worker is b…

>I've always done well by being judged and rewarded as an individual It doesn't surprise me too much that this union talk is coming from places like Kickstarter, I mean as an individual engineer at Kickstarter what could you really do to elevate yourself, the site is a solved problem. Unless they have an interest in branching out into a new product you have very little opportunity to rise above the rest of the team j…

I think that's a good analysis. Never work in a cost centre. Or if you do, unionize.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#266

Post by faitswulff »

username90 wrote: post #260
skitout wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there are some horror stories about unions, but you are just generalizing. And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of companies would not look the same. Having an organization that can help a worker that is abused, or giving more bargaining power to workers seems clearly positive for the worker. That could be a bit more irritating for the top management ... But the German exampl…

People could organize a European style union for software engineers right now in USA if they wanted, but they aren't doing it. Instead they are still pushing for US style unions like they did at Kickstarter. The only reason I can think of why they are doing this is that they want the extra power that comes with US style unions instead of the more worker friendly EU style unions.

What is the primary difference between EU and US style unions?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#267

Post by bananaface »

mattlondon wrote: post #252

For UK readers: consider joining the 100-year-old Prospect union https://prospect.org.uk/about/who-are-prospect/ > more than 145,000 members who work as scientists, engineers, tech experts and in other specialist roles. I see it simply as something of an "insurance policy" in case bad stuff happens - I feel this is especially useful to have this as backup as Brexit and the fall-out from COVID are on the horizon...

How does the protection work in the case of e.g. Brexit going badly? Do they have insurance policies that pay out if the UK economy tanks?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#268

Post by 082349872349872 »

faitswulff wrote: post #266
username90 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People could organize a European style union for software engineers right now in USA if they wanted, but they aren't doing it. Instead they are still pushing for US style unions like they did at Kickstarter. The only reason I can think of why they are doing this is that they want the extra power that comes with US style unions instead of the more worker friendly EU style unions.

What is the primary difference between EU and US style unions?

Board seats?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#269

Post by skitout »

627467 wrote: post #261
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Several have mentioned that contemporary tech workers (mostly?) are privileged and have leverage in negotiations that allows them to individually gain what others in other industry can only get through unions. Part of that leverage comes from having lots of options. And why is there lots of options? Because "anyone" can start a tech company. The main mean of production of a tech outfit is the tech workers themselves.…

If you are super handsome, rich, smart and young, it is easier for you than most people to find another girlfriend / boyfriend... but you still want to have influence of the big decision inside your couple, you don't want to be abused...

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#270

Post by leto_ii »

LatteLazy wrote: post #263
leto_ii wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We haven't had pro-worker legislation in decades as far as I can tell. I don't know why unions are so bad at this as (at least IMHO) it seems like a core responsibility AND a major selling point. Unions were never as powerful as the capitalist elites. All worker rights were hard-won (often with the price of life) and there has always been a lot of counter-pressure from capitalists. For a while, following the New De…

I'd agree with all of this, except maybe saying English speaking instead of western world. But here we are. Joining a union won't help me in the local or immediate sense and it won't change politics. I don't like the economic or political system. But with zero options to change it, I have to pursue whatever will get me the best return for my efforts. That isn't unionisation sadly. Its a 19th century solution that doe…

One thing I'm considering, at some point, is to start a cooperative-like business. This kind of enterprise is normally associated with manual labor, but I can't think of a reason why you couldn't have a tech coop. I actually think it would go hand in hand with the idea of more craftsmanship in software development (something I'm also in favor of), not to mention that it would greatly improve workers' rights (since the workers would also be the owners of the business).
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