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Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

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Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#261

Post by jessaustin »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #254
jessaustin wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recent events cast doubt on your judgment of the government there. Unlike e.g. New York they have dealt somewhat effectively with the pandemic. Seattle was hit first yet seems to have brought the situation under control with fewer deaths than other American cities. At the very least, they didn't force covid-positive patients into old folks' homes.

There's a pretty big difference between Seattle and NYC in terms of size and population density. Like many orders of magnitude difference. But you're right that NYC didn't handle the outbreak very well.

MSA population: 19M/4M -> less than one order of magnitude

City population: 8.3M/750k -> one order of magnitude

City density: 28k/8400 -> less than one order of magnitude

This is not what one imagines when one encounters the sentence fragment "Like many orders of magnitude difference."

[EDIT:] Normally technical correctness is appreciated? If anyone here really thinks that New York has done a better job dealing with the pandemic than Washington State, I would love to see the reasoning. ISTM this argument from population proves too much; why can't it be invoked anytime New York's performance lags other states?

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#262

Post by hellomyguys »

remarkEon wrote: post #162
dragonwriter wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Cut funding for police departments”, that is shown in that poll isn't what the dismantle/abolish is about (it's not even a fair portrayal what “defund” is centrally about, which is shifting funding from PDs to alternative services .) And that poll is from near the beginning of the recent protests. More recent polling shows much higher support for both “defund” and “dismantle” than what that poll found for it's lopsi…

Yes, there exists nuance to the "defund the police" stance (though a lot less on the whole "abolish" the police position). My point is that many people have essentially been gaslit into thinking this has widespread support. It does not, regardless of whatever nuance exists. From your article: >For example, 39% of respondents supported proposals “to completely dismantle police departments and give more financial suppo…

If you told me this stat a month ago, I would never believe it. 39% is a shocking amount and I can only imagine it is going to increase.

You're right that we would still need to train a new organization to deal with violent events. But you're also ignoring the upside of not having a cop with a gun issuing speeding tickets, or dealing with someone experiencing mental health issues, or other things that could be better served by more specialized roles.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#263

Post by liability »

jessaustin wrote: post #233
throwaway894345 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without police or “criminal justice apparatus” your rights are merely theoretical.

If you feel this insecure, you should purchase firearms and practice using them. Many of your neighbors are doing this.

Why not have the government hire people to do that for me? Call it "socialized defense" or something.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#264

Post by VWWHFSfQ »

jessaustin wrote: post #261
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a pretty big difference between Seattle and NYC in terms of size and population density. Like many orders of magnitude difference. But you're right that NYC didn't handle the outbreak very well.

MSA population: 19M/4M -> less than one order of magnitude City population: 8.3M/750k -> one order of magnitude City density: 28k/8400 -> less than one order of magnitude This is not what one imagines when one encounters the sentence fragment "Like many orders of magnitude difference." [EDIT:] Normally technical correctness is appreciated? If anyone here really thinks that New York has done a better job dealing with…

you see there's a pretty big difference though

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#265

Post by salawat »

kempbellt wrote: post #204
staplers wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

eventually the idiots/assholes will become a problem that needs to be dealt with Like the police force?

When people start policing the police force, don't they become....the police (by definition, not legality)? And therefore susceptible to becoming just like the "idiots/assholes" they were empowered to deal with. Certainly an interesting recursion problem.

The solution to that is not having an "empowered" caste, and leaving it to a community to police themselves.

Everyone tends to get nervous about that though.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#266

Post by danharaj »

albybisy wrote: post #6

From Wikipedia: Animal Farm by G.Orwell "The book tells the story of a group of farm animals who rebel against their human farmer, hoping to create a society where the animals can be equal, free, and happy. Ultimately, however, the rebellion is betrayed, and the farm ends up in a state as bad as it was before, under the dictatorship of a pig named Napoleon." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm

"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism as I understand it." - George Orwell (1946)

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#267

Post by ShamelessC »

dang wrote: post #858
dang wrote: post #77

All: this story is here because it's an interesting phenomenon, a la https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Before commenting, please make sure you're up to date on those rules and post in the intended spirit (curiosity and conversation) not the opposite one (ideology and battle).

This is a stub comment to collect replies in one place, so that it can be collapsed and prevent too much offtopicness at the top of the thread.

Thanks for leaving this one up. I understand it's not the discourse this site is directly interested in, but the occasional opportunity to debate such issues in an intelligent forum is something I have trouble finding elsewhere on the internet.

Having said that, I'm sure these types of post create a lot of work for you. I appreciate the upkeep and please keep up the good work!

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#268

Post by jessaustin »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #264
jessaustin wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MSA population: 19M/4M -> less than one order of magnitude City population: 8.3M/750k -> one order of magnitude City density: 28k/8400 -> less than one order of magnitude This is not what one imagines when one encounters the sentence fragment "Like many orders of magnitude difference." [EDIT:] Normally technical correctness is appreciated? If anyone here really thinks that New York has done a better job dealing with…

you see there's a pretty big difference though

They are not the same city, but no two cities are. Lots of denser and more populous cities in other nations have done better. Most of the most serious mistakes in New York were made at the state level; Washington State exhibited better governance. New York at least had some warning that the pandemic was coming. Washington had the USA patient zero.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#269

Post by ed25519FUUU »

rtkwe wrote: post #258
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #154

I never understand why likeminded people don’t just start a city? “Wild country” was an example of this, but they were bound together by a quasi religion. There’s so much unincorporated land in the USA. So many opportunities to prove things work or don’t work. Why move into a place somebody else built?

Unincorporated but not unowned and there's a huge amount of infrastructure and money required to setup even a small town ex nihilo in some randomly selected part of the country.

Building infrastructure is something easily solved by capitalist. Can it not also be solved by likeminded people with alternative economic principles?

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#270

Post by jessaustin »

liability wrote: post #263
jessaustin wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you feel this insecure, you should purchase firearms and practice using them. Many of your neighbors are doing this.

Why not have the government hire people to do that for me? Call it "socialized defense" or something.

Your experiences with this may have gone better for you than those of many of your neighbors went for them?
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