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De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

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Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#261

Post by Rapzid »

It's not entirely surprising, but it has been rather shocking to see the groups, some more organized than others, that have been coming in and inciting these confrontations between police and the rest of the public present at the location.

From what I've seen of videos posted of the vandals and looters in my own and other cities it seems a certain, very small, percentage of bad actors are provoking escalations to the detriment of everybody else. Some of these parties seem to be doing that as a primary goal, others are simply causing the escalations as a side-effect of their actions.

Certainly this doesn't account for everything we have witnessed, such as the NG shooting rubber bullets at people on their porches(srs WTF?), but it has contributed substantially to the escalation IMO.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#262

Post by komali2 »

kuzimoto wrote: post #227
komali2 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your motorcycle isn't your shelter Not seen news come out of people's homes destroyed. If we're going to participate in a damages competition, though, let's do that - the cops shot out a couple people's eyeballs, but only after of course kicking off this whole thing by murdering black people with no consequences. There, that settles that.

> murdering black people with no consequences. Can you elaborate? All four of the police officers were immediately fired. The primary officer that was kneeling on him was charged with murder and manslaughter and will go to prison. Likely charges will be brought on the other three.

Only after a police station was burned down.

Lord forbid nobody caught the murder on video. This happens all over America, all the time. Thread is full of links or a quick hop on google will serve you in this regard.

What would have happened if it was citizens? All four would be in jail immediately, if they even get that far without being shot for "resisting arrest" first. At the very least they'd get a beating somewhere between having cuffs put on them and getting into a squad car. We know this from all the recorded instances of police brutality looking exactly as I've just described.

Lost their jobs. Come on. Would you merely "lose your job" if you watched your buddy murder a guy and stood there throughout the whole thing?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#263

Post by tcbawo »

slg wrote: post #123
tcbawo wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a police officer is a difficult, thankless, dangerous job, yet critical for a functional society. You don't get the same resources, respect, or pension of the military. If you are let go/fired, you have little chance of finding something comparable close by. It's not healthy for the psyche to be put into harm's way for an entire career span. There is probably a lot of untreated PTSD going on. It's not surprisin…

I guess this is just another one of those problems that almost every other western democracy has figured out that is simply impossible to fix in the US.

It's probably a given that other western democracies have less police-related violence. Which countries have the best systems?

I suspect the impass will be worked around rather than fixed. Quasi-police will take on some law enforcement duties. Technology will intercede in a big way. Our public anonymity is probably already out the door.

I wouldn't be surprised if many looters are tracked and identified even with face masks, even retroactively.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#264

Post by vertex-four »

stcredzero wrote: post #183
komali2 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you feel that way if they came and burned your house or business down? Yup, and I have the receipts to prove it: my motorcycle was vandalized in Oakland during the protests. A small price to pay for unsung voices being heard. You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them.

You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them. The state should have the monopoly on violence. Then, instead of everyone doing violence, we have certain, appointed people given the responsibility who can then be trained and monitored. This is part and parcel of the Rule of Law. Certainly, this system isn't perfect. B…

> Certainly, this system isn't perfect

Well shit it isn't, it results every year in people being murdered in cold blood, nobody being arrested for it despite the perpetrators being known, and the majority of the population is apparently utterly fine with this - even you are merely saying that this situation "needs improvement", like you're marking homework. "The police only murdered one person in cold blood today rather than two, have a cookie!"

I've had a friend in an EU country have the police break their bones and leave them locked up without medical treatment for weeks, because they were an Eastern European refugee. This is what "Rule of Law" looks like - it looks like entire populations being utterly terrorised by a sanctioned force that they have absolutely no power to stop.

Law is a bunch of words on a piece of paper, it has no power to rule. We leave that to organisations (the police, prosecutor's office, courts and prisons) with a history and present of institutionalised racism and no accountability to the communities they terrorise.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#265

Post by thelock85 »

briandear wrote: post #220
bjourne wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on a few demos that turned violent. Among them the famous one when George Bush decided to pay a visit. In all cases , the organizers wanted to cooperate with the police. They knew who were in the "autonomous bloc" (troublemakers) and would have gladly helped the police zone in on them. In all cases the police didn't care and charged peaceful and violent demonstrators alike. I find it very odd that the polic…

> I find it very odd that the police still cannot after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction. I have been in the middle of protests when I worked for Reuters and the difference between peaceful and violent is very tiny. I was in the no-man’s land between the K…

> ...as soon as looting, fires, and violence starts, then a large portion of the population now starts discussing and being angry about that rather than the core issue.

If true, then it’s sad that loss of property is such an effective distraction to facing down centuries of systemic oppression. On a more conspiratorial note, this seems like a good counter strategy for the people who ostensibly would rather the masses focus on property damage than laws, statutes and police training.

On a separate note, the historical record of protests is mostly disseminated through MSM, which has a profit motive for click/read bait. So it’s truly hard to know the extent of violence occurring in recent protests. The citizen record (captured through Twitter, Instagram, TikTok) seems overrun with police violence against protesters and the media record seems overrun with pictures of looting and burning buildings. How does one truly grasp the extent of either?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#266

Post by Mtinie »

booleandilemma wrote: post #69
somebrody wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t think that typical “pro-police forces” want to own the narrative of their cause being racist and violent I think they do. Many cops seem to be very racist and very violent. It doesn't seem like they care who knows it. Even when they do care, they might not turn on body-cams which should be a fireable offense and now it finally is in at least one case in Kentucky.

Many cops seem to be very racist and very violent Citation needed. I think most cops are just normal people trying to earn a living.

Both of your statements can be true without invalidating the others’.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#267

Post by bluedays »

briandear wrote: post #220
bjourne wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on a few demos that turned violent. Among them the famous one when George Bush decided to pay a visit. In all cases , the organizers wanted to cooperate with the police. They knew who were in the "autonomous bloc" (troublemakers) and would have gladly helped the police zone in on them. In all cases the police didn't care and charged peaceful and violent demonstrators alike. I find it very odd that the polic…

> I find it very odd that the police still cannot after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction. I have been in the middle of protests when I worked for Reuters and the difference between peaceful and violent is very tiny. I was in the no-man’s land between the K…

[flagged]

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#268

Post by jeffbee »

silverreads wrote: post #248
jeffbee wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Donald Rumsfeld, looting is a normal step on the road from oppression to freedom. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGGrS0VPrbc

Hey that's not fair, that's from 2015! What does he think now? Don't just judge a man forever by his past actions!

It's from 2003.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#269

Post by AnthonyMouse »

silverreads wrote: post #216
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't actually tell which one you're trying to say is more important right now. The case for "riots are the bigger problem right now" being that there is a whole lot more rioting and looting happening right now than there usually is, whereas the amount of police violence is currently significantly below the typical level (as a result of the coronavirus and everyone staying inside, but still).

11,000 claims of abuse in the last 3 days just in seattle is low?

You can't retroactively justify a riot based on police conflicts with rioters. It violates causality.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#270

Post by thephyber »

somebrody wrote: post #80
dexen wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The list of police chiefs is solid. I share your concerns over Qualified Immunity (and other problems). The relevant discussions are here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23379910 ("As Qualified Immunity Takes Center Stage, More Delay from SCOTUS") and here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23386260 (a subthread of this discussion) [edit] >It focuses on race of one part of police leadership >Highlighting pol…

> The relevant discussions are here Squirmy

I thought it was a decent effort to point out content in the most relevant place.

The relevant site guideline is to assume that others are commenting in good faith.

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