How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#261

Post by zebnyc » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 10:33 PM UTC

Seems to me everytime there is a groundswell of activism, there is some element of discord (looting / rioting) which becomes the new narrative and is used to discredit the entire movement. This story has been on repeat-loop for almost a decade now.

Here is a protestor in NY claiming that looters were actually undercover NYPD detectives https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/126693546402143027... Another example I can think of is the video of Jon Jones taking the spray cans from couple of rioters. These rioters are caucasian and we can only assume that they were more interested in wreaking damage than on "protesting" and hence can only be incidentally related to the movement. While strictly anecdotal, this simply disproves the false narrative on conservative circles which are inevitably going to focus on the rioting / looting rather than how to improve society.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#262

Post by thex10 » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 10:33 PM UTC

lazugod wrote: post #254

runawaybottle wrote: post #92

What are some actual laws we can pass from this situation? I was thinking at the very least to get a citizen right where you can request to have any encounter with the police recorded. ‘Officer I request my right to have this encounter recorded’.

It’s possible that the answer is “there are no laws that can be passed”, at least at the national level. https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1267253355530858496

And as for state/local legislation, here are a few things that have been done, or at least proposed: https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1266855519425384450

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#263

Post by standardUser » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 10:38 PM UTC

spaginal wrote: post #204

Press2forEN wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but there is a predictable political divide about the fallout.

Everyone has pretty much universally agreed that what the officers did was unacceptable. Even other Police. The officer was arrested, why things didn't move sooner was a local matter to take up with that mayor and that department. It should have been handled locally, not all departments are the same. But you end up in a situation of further tragedy where people start destroying property and assaulting others, and the…

Noise and chaos gets heard. You know what gets completely ignored in this country? Peaceful protest. The actions of the last week are far, far more likely to result in change than any mass protest. Just look at the anti-Iraq war protests - the largest protests in US history held in dozens of cities over months and accomplished precisely nothing at all. Civil rights, gay rights, women's right were all won with a lot more than voting and peaceful protest. A lot more.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#264

Post by lazyjones » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 10:40 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #200

lazyjones wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. I am confident that this reality check for people who are somewhat blindly supporting their ideologies will benefit everyone. Beginning with the wealthier people who supported these protests and are now seeing their gated communities burn and their "progressive" newspapers destroyed.

Are the gated communities burning or the high-density poor city blocks?

Looks like both, but poor areas first:

https://twitter.com/ChrisPalmerNBA/status/126741517304573542...

https://thepostmillennial.com/journalist-supported-protester...

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#265

Post by syshum » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 10:44 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #80

kajumix wrote: post #35

"I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness... But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices —…

> Voting and democracy should not become a device to placate the dissatisfied masses into silence, make them lineup for ballot, to choose a lesser evil who, in most likelihood, will turn out to be a egotistical power-seeker. What else should you expect when people are limited to only two political parties? It could be worse with only one political party.

>>It could be worse with only one political party.

Well I hate to break it to you, most of the protests, and police abuse seem to originate in major cities that have largely been controlled by a single political party for longer than most people have been alive...

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#266

Post by syshum » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 10:45 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #215

Consultant32452 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was nothing incompatible about our values regarding what we saw in that video. The idea that there was a political divide about this incident is a myth. Even the openly racist people I know were saying it was fucked up.

Yes, but the immediate aftermath of that showed deep disagreement about “what to do about that problem.” Leftists want to dismantle the “systems of oppression” they perceive produces that result. Libertarians want to get rid of qualified immunity and police unions. Conservatives are taken aback by the rioting and violence and for them the immediate need maintaining social order has overtaken the more long term desire…

As normal, libertarians have the correct and rational solution to the problem :)

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#267

Post by AnimalMuppet » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 10:49 PM UTC

testbot123 wrote: post #253

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's racist violence, not political violence. It doesn't have to be burning homes for arson to have potential to kill. Burning a Target can easily kill someone too. And, "it hasn't kill anyone yet" is a pretty weak counter to the claim that arson can be violence. In fact, people do die from arson. The fact that nobody has - yet - in these protests does not change that whatsoever.

Racist violence is political violence. It is agents of the state enforcing a racial order which is inextricable from (and perpetuated by) the politics of the state. > And, "it hasn't kill anyone yet" is a pretty weak counter to the claim that arson can be violence. In fact, people do die from arson. The fact that nobody has - yet - in these protests does not change that whatsoever. Okay, but then people are more like…

> Racist violence is political violence. It is agents of the state enforcing a racial order which is inextricable from (and perpetuated by) the politics of the state.

Boloney. It is individuals, even if in positions of authority (and even if far too many of them), carrying out their own warped agenda, not that of the state.

> Okay, but then people are more likely to be killed by a police officer than by arson. So why don't we focus on the actual violent catalyst for all the protesting (and the ones playing out all over the country), which actually happened?

Why should I choose? I oppose violence (or even excessive force) by police officers, and I oppose arson by rioters. And I oppose both for the same reason.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#268

Post by thundergolfer » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 10:50 PM UTC

marnett wrote: post #156

Tangentially related: Alex S. Vitale's book "The End of Policing" is currently free in e-book from Verso: https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing Worth reading to familiarize oneself with leftist views on institution of Policing. Likely some eye-opening viewpoints for most.

His arguments for the origins of policing being a protector of private capital was an eye-opener for me.

I already was familiar with the argument that the police are more often deployed in the service of protecting private property rather than public protection (eg. these protests) but it was surprising just how blatant the relationship was between capitalists being scared of labour power and new police forces being created.

I need to look into it more.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#269

Post by syshum » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 10:52 PM UTC

mmastrac wrote: post #22

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

>>a policing system that is so fundamentally damaged and has not been effectively reformed fast enough.

The problem is there has been ZERO actual reform to policing at all, there have been at best some lipstick measures but there has been zero real reforms to the fundamental structure of policing in this nation. Which includes the Paramilitary style, training, order, and even ranking with in the various dept's

The Militarization of the police force has been going on for decades, and this is what happens when you use a military for policing. It never works out well for anyone

I have no hope that the police departments of this nation have any desire to roll back that militarization at all, and I have no hope that the legislatures of this nation have any intention to force that rollback to occur.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#270

Post by senderista » Mon, Jun 01, 2020, 10:55 PM UTC

Press2forEN wrote: post #124

sidibe wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if things would be better if there was some mandatory thing like jury duty where you had to go meet and hang out for an hour with a different randomly picked person every a month at some center where they'd have something for you to do so it's not 100% awkward. I realize that's a terrible idea, but not sure of any way of changing people's attitudes towards each other when they'd rather stick to their little…

I tend to think people's attitudes come from too much diversity rather than too little. The most diverse places I've ever been are also the most visibly segregated and racially aware (but not in a good way). Meanwhile, I see the most tolerance for others in homogeneous places. I wonder if this is borne out in any studies.

I've observed that racial stereotypes seem to be borne out more often than not in the urban environments I've lived in, because minorities there tend to be disproportionately poor and uneducated. So I share your skepticism that "diversity" per se is the answer to prejudice. Canada for example is much more white on the whole compared to the US, and far more tolerant on the whole. Ditto with Scandinavia etc.