Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 393 posts

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#261

Post by jariel »

ciarannolan wrote: post #199
jariel wrote: post #157

This pragmatically means the administrators are free to pursue their biased and ideological policy objectives. I loathe to be so cynical but 'roughly objective' measures are usually better than none.

> This pragmatically means the administrators are free to pursue their biased and ideological policy objectives. This is the express purpose of this change.

This is probably true, and really it hurts.

In this Trumpian era we like to talk about the 'integrity of institutions' and yet so many are boldly willing to do away with the results of baseline objectivity when it doesn't suit their agenda.

Because of course, the 'agenda' is what matters, not Truth or Objectivity.

Hmmm ... I wonder if we could have a place, where like ... 'free thinkers' could be free to talk about ideas and be objective without worrisome authoritarians creeping in. Maybe we could protect such people with things like 'tenure' so that they would be free to not have to follow some specific ideal ...

Now that would be interesting!

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#262

Post by true_religion »

abhorrence wrote: post #239
curiousllama wrote: post #232

I can't help but wonder at the motivations for these changes, at UC and other schools. It seems to be a combination of equity (it favors rich kids), effectiveness (it's not that predictive) and risk aversion (can't prove racist admissions if there's no standardized comparison). And yet... I wonder if we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Standardized tests _seem_ like they could be such a such a powerful fo…

I think the problem with standardized tests is that they're standardized; you can prepare for them. It reduces both the effectiveness and the equity, because preparation for the tests is something that rich kids will have better time and access to.

Wouldn’t this continue into college? Well off families can have their children simply study in college, and provide money for extra materials. Other students will have to get jobs to service their on going tuition.

An example of how merit based systems also favor the rich is the UN internship system. You are an unpaid intern in Genova, one of the most expensive cities in the world. If you pass, you have an easy path through the UN but only the rich can afford that.

I think the real issue is money is useful beyond buying hedonism and comfort.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#263

Post by killjoywashere »

caseysoftware wrote: post #189
anon102010 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha.. I think you have this backwards! If you think money can buy a good SAT score - go make some. Reality? Much easier to pay for a trip to "volunteer" in africa or at the local hospital, get on sports teams etc etc. If you have $$ being head of club X is a cakewalk! I had life changing SAT scores, and while prep helps, that slacker kid isn't getting 1600

A few years ago, I was advising a group of undergraduates at a university and noticed that one was the President of their club. I thought that was cool and met another.. who was also President. Then a third. It turns out, they called all their members "president" so they could all declare they were a "president of X" on their resume and could talk about leadership. Creative way to game the system for $0.

Words have meaning and that amounts to a lie en masse. Because the word "president" has a specific meaning in the English language, what you describe is not "creative", it's "collusion".

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#264

Post by KMag »

abhorrence wrote: post #239
curiousllama wrote: post #232

I can't help but wonder at the motivations for these changes, at UC and other schools. It seems to be a combination of equity (it favors rich kids), effectiveness (it's not that predictive) and risk aversion (can't prove racist admissions if there's no standardized comparison). And yet... I wonder if we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Standardized tests _seem_ like they could be such a such a powerful fo…

I think the problem with standardized tests is that they're standardized; you can prepare for them. It reduces both the effectiveness and the equity, because preparation for the tests is something that rich kids will have better time and access to.

> I think the problem with standardized tests is that they're standardized; you can prepare for them.

Honest question: what is it about the standardization that fundamentally makes standardized tests easier to prepare for vs. non-standardized tests? It's not like either sort of test re-uses questions year-to-year, or that non-standardized tests have mystery subject matter.

The standardization is that everyone gets the same questions, or a mix from the same pool of questions. That aspect doesn't seem to make preparation any easier or harder, unless you're talking about the standardization making elaborate cheating schemes scale better, but that's not generally considered prep.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#265

Post by [deleted] »

AaronFriel wrote: post #137

Such a move would mean I would never have been admitted to university, and I don't think I'm alone. I graduated third from the bottom of my class from High School and had enormous difficulties with a school system that was adversarial to me throughout my childhood. In my public elementary school my principal deceived state officials to try to put me into special ed. She was admonished after it was revealed she hid my…

[deleted]

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#266

Post by nitwit005 »

Giving even more incentive for high schools to inflate their students grades. Give them all straight As so they have a good shot at the UCs.

I don't see how you can eliminate having some sort of admissions test. It's too easy to fake most of the other criteria they want to use for admissions.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#267

Post by 5986043handy »

google234123 wrote: post #255
abhorrence wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with standardized tests is that they're standardized; you can prepare for them. It reduces both the effectiveness and the equity, because preparation for the tests is something that rich kids will have better time and access to.

Except that SAT test prep has a very small impact on scores. And the fact that there is an enormous amount of free resources. What

Test prep has a small impact ONLY WHEN ALL OTHER BACKGROUND FACTORS ARE CONTROLLED. Many studies have found that without these controls on things like parental income, school district, etc., test prep has a large impact due to the vastly improved test prep of students who can afford high quality coaching/spend lots of time preparing.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#268

Post by xphilter »

KMag wrote: post #264
abhorrence wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with standardized tests is that they're standardized; you can prepare for them. It reduces both the effectiveness and the equity, because preparation for the tests is something that rich kids will have better time and access to.

> I think the problem with standardized tests is that they're standardized; you can prepare for them. Honest question: what is it about the standardization that fundamentally makes standardized tests easier to prepare for vs. non-standardized tests? It's not like either sort of test re-uses questions year-to-year, or that non-standardized tests have mystery subject matter. The standardization is that everyone gets th…

You can pay for tutoring that will improve your ability to answer those types of questions rather than increase your intelligence. If the standardized tests were good tests of general knowledge then paying $4,000 for a prep course shouldn’t be able to materially increase your score. You’re basically learning how to solve the SAT/ACT/LSAT puzzle, not suddenly learning a few years of school in 2 weeks.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#269

Post by eloff »

5986043handy wrote: post #267
google234123 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that SAT test prep has a very small impact on scores. And the fact that there is an enormous amount of free resources. What

Test prep has a small impact ONLY WHEN ALL OTHER BACKGROUND FACTORS ARE CONTROLLED. Many studies have found that without these controls on things like parental income, school district, etc., test prep has a large impact due to the vastly improved test prep of students who can afford high quality coaching/spend lots of time preparing.

If they spend lots of time preparing, they deserve it right? Even if you compare a rich kid preparing full time versus a poor kid preparing exhausted for an hour at the end of the day, the rich kid rightly deserves it - logically they'll also have more time for their studies at the college and do better at it.

I'm all for equal opportunity, but not of outcomes.

Post reply on HN