Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the 19th and early 20th centuries there was in the US a proliferation of medical schools - many unaffiliated with Universities - with very few entrance requirements, extremely uneven quality of education and little standardization in curriculum. In fact many people became doctors through apprenticeship right up through the turn of the 20th century. Many states had extremely lax or nonexistent licensing requirement…
The number of physicians per capita in the U.S. is greater than Canada or Japan, both of which have cheaper healthcare. Yes, apparently most European countries have a significantly higher ratio. But, interestingly, all the Anglo countries (UK/GB, US, AU, IE) seem to cluster together. The issue seems more complex than something simple like number of physicians. A high ratio is unnecessary for cheaper, quality healthca…
The Amish health care system
261–270 of 327 posts
Re: The Amish health care system
#262> Amish people spend only a fifth as much as you do on health care, and their health is fine. What can we learn from them? Given this opener, it seems bizarre that the article doesn't use the word "diet" even once. The comment there by "Scoop" seems right on. Google tells me the USA is estimated to have around 300,000 obesity-related deaths per year. Apparently [0] obesity is around 10% as common in Amish communities…
Both obesity in the "english" group and the healthier lifestyle of the amish group are discussed by Scott in this article.
I'm seeing a single relevant sentence:
> As far as I can tell, most of the secret is spending your whole life outside doing strenuous agricultural labor, plus being at a tech level two centuries too early for fast food.
If that's what counts for improving health, why doesn't the article discuss that, rather than discussing only healthcare? (That's not to downplay the important issues the article raises, of course.)
I think my point stands here. There's an unfortunate trend to treat the healthcare system as the answer to health problems, and to dismiss the enormously important lifestyle questions. Compare the opening paragraph of the article with what the article goes on to discuss:
> Amish people spend only a fifth as much as you do on health care, and their health is fine. What can we learn from them?
An article that explores what we can learn from the Amish regarding health, should spend more than a sentence on diet.
Re: The Amish health care system
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why do I need to see a doctor to get a mole or skin lesion checked? Why is it necessary for someone to go through 4 years of undergrad, med school, etc etc just to examine a mole and remove it with a scalpel?
Are you trolling? Are you legitimately asking why you need a doctor to check something that might be, amongst the million other possible complications, Cancer?
Re: The Amish health care system
#264Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a slight misstatement to say that any of the M4A plans would have "banned private insurance." None of them prohibit supplemental coverage that would be secondary to Medicare.
This doesn't apply to procedures that are covered, though, does it? Like, a private plan that provides higher-quality / reduced wait times for all services you'd normally get from the public system.
For any of the services covered by Medicare. Quoting the Kaiser Family Foundation, "private insurance would be prohibited from duplicating the coverage under Medicare."
[0] The full quote here is "If you support Medicare for All, you have to be willing to end the greed of the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries. That means boldly transforming our dysfunctional system by ending the use of private health insurance, except to cover non-essential care like cosmetic surgeries."
[1] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-05/harris-ke...
Re: The Amish health care system
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
The biggest administrative costs in health care are the insurance companies' costs. [0] To the tune of more than $200 billion dollars/year. [0] https://time.com/5759972/health-care-administrative-costs/
You have to be able to see that the numbers do not add up, right? 200b is how much out of 3+ trillions? Also, just because Canadian adminstrative costs are hidden, does not mean they are proportionally lower than in the US
Re: The Amish health care system
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
Everyone with absolutely no knowledge of our healthcare system "look(s) at the medical profession as the racket it is." They then proceed to point at things as the root cause that every health policy expert in the country can tell you is not the root cause, and that doesn't hold up to even slight scrutiny by comparison with other, similar, countries.
Could that just be a way of saying that health policy experts are attached to the status quo? Do they have a consensus on how to fix commonly cited problems, and agreement that we ought to?
Re: The Amish health care system
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
So what's up then? Or if you can't say what's up -- fair enough, you're not an oracle -- what slight scrutiny in particular topples this particular root cause hypothesis?
It doesn't cost 3k to have an MD do stitches. That money's going somewhere else (Actual experts may or may not know where).
By the way, actual cost transparency has winners and losers too. The winner is generally private insurers, who can use it to negotiate reimbursement further downward. The losers are everyone else. It's pretty much never the patient, regardless of what advocates of "patient consumerism" cry. When you're a grain of sand between two massive gears, you don't ever win the game of policy arbitrage.
If all you need is stitches, you can go to your PCP ($20-$60), surgeon's private office ($50-$100) or Urgent Care ($50-$200). Instead you go to the highest overhead center, occupy the attention of at least 2 nurses, a mid-level, and a doc, and... yes, pay for all of the above. In a space whose allocated overhead includes the weighted average of "stitches that shouldn't have come in" to "diabetic ketoacidosis with multiple organ failure."
Part of our systemic problems is, due to how we're structured, it's borderline impossible for an ER to say (a polite version of) "You're fucking kidding me. We have an urgent care center across the street - go there." [1]
We have many, many, many systemic problems. People using the ED as a primary care office and complaining about the disparity in prices is the least egregious of them.
[1] In part because hospitals used to try to bounce indigent patients. So now they can't do anything that smacks of bouncing anyone. So even if you try to divert patients from the ED to an in-house Urgent-ish Care, they still have to go through the ED pathway to determine that they're stable (meaning a doc has to evaluate them), before they can be shunted over. And now you're in a hospital, so the overhead of the Urgent-ish Care is already way higher than just having gone to UC to begin with. The hospital has no incentive to establish a spot for providing the same level of care, at high overhead, for lower reimbursement.
Re: The Amish health care system
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's as if the rich assume that things will change for the worse for them if universal health care is enacted. Well, it depends on the implementation, but Bernie Sanders has been on record numerous times as stating that his Medicare-for-All proposal would absolutely ban private insurance. Elizabeth Warren is another Democratic front-runner who indicated that she's on board with that, though her proposals didn't nec…
For what purpose would they not ban it?
That said, answering your question, they would presumably not ban it because a) the aforementioned arguments upthread make it pretty silly to do, and because b) it seems impossible to me that banning a wholly legal service just because it competes with the government would ever be deemed as constitutional.
Well, not ever -- but not today, and not with the direction that the Supreme Court has been taking for decades now in regards to government power. Licensure seems possible, but I think even prohibitive licensure intended to dissuade private entities from competing with the government would be tossed out, and we already have such programs for insurance providers anyway.
Re: The Amish health care system
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
They still pay taxes, though. Germany allows people to opt out entirely, although there are a bunch of conditions and limitations. Most people don't, so the public system can still pay for itself.
Sadly in germany it's rather difficult to switch between public and private or no insurance. Or rather, it's very difficult to get back on a public insurance once you're private or self-insured. The best you can hope for is pulling it off once, maybe twice.
Re: The Amish health care system
#270Earlier quoted context omitted.
Everyone with absolutely no knowledge of our healthcare system "look(s) at the medical profession as the racket it is." They then proceed to point at things as the root cause that every health policy expert in the country can tell you is not the root cause, and that doesn't hold up to even slight scrutiny by comparison with other, similar, countries.
So what's up then? Or if you can't say what's up -- fair enough, you're not an oracle -- what slight scrutiny in particular topples this particular root cause hypothesis?
1. We are fractured. There is no "healthcare system." That's a singular noun. We have a marketplace: that means things like three top-tier specialty centers in walking distance of each other in some areas, and nothing at all in others. About 90% of our problems derive from this. As do a number of our strengths (if you're in Boston, you should never have to wait more than two weeks for a colonoscopy. Ever.)
1a. The healthcare "system" is not equivalent to hospitals. Hospitals are a single strain of profit-seeking enterprise (non-profit hospitals are the same shit.) People keep confusing the two, resulting in advocacy for policies that just concentrate power harder into the hands of a few, massive, corporations.
2. We are bipolar. A huge, huge proportion of our healthcare dollars flows from medicare. A large portion of our people are uninsured or underinsured. The result is that healthcare operations are built (generally) around Medicare's billing practices and needs - that's what you optimize on to stay afloat. This means when someone uninsured comes in, though, they're thrown into an operational flow for which they're barely an after-thought. Prices set as a negotiation point with private insurers are brought to bear against uninsured people - and they get nailed with ridiculous, unpredictable prices that have nothing to do with... almost anything. These people either need to be brought under the umbrella of contracted rates (Medicare For All), or I don't know what. You're not going to convince an organization with operating margins 3. Unfunded Mandates. Every policy change pushed through our healthcare system is perceived as targeting "those wealthy doctors" (doctor != hospital != healthcare system). Most docs I know drive a Nissan Altima or a Camry - they're middle-class cogs buried under debt. But the stereotype makes a good excuse for pushing policy changes and then not allocating money to accomplishing them. Which means every policy change fractures the system further apart socioeconomically - you have wealthy-client practices that can afford to stop taking insurance, opt-out of Medicare, and thus avoid all these unfunded mandates... and then you have everyone else. Which puts basically everyone but hospitals out of business, because only hospitals have the capital and the scale to be able to meet the new requirements. You think FB likes privacy regs because it builds a moat? Hospitals don't just get moats, they basically get to buy up every small practice in the area at cost. Your local PCP is small and nimble enough to say "oh, you're uninsured? Fuck it, $40." It's the hospital that says, "Oh, we'll send you a bill later," and then ho boy, get ready. This also includes getting docs who are super-bought into the status quo: "We profited off charging you hundreds of thousands in tuition. We sold the idea that you'd be set afterwards, and could just be a good doctor. Turns out that while paying off your loans, you're just middle-middle-class, after having been impoverished into your 30s. And now, for the good of society, we'd like to cut your income by another 20%, while asking you to continue working like a madman. No, we will not offer you one penny of federal loan forgiveness, even though it is the federal government that is gutting your income. In fact, we won't even let you declare bankruptcy - that's cause for revoking your license." Yeah, docs are going to buck really hard against most changes in hc reimbursement. Even so, look at organizations like Doctors For America - a shit ton of docs still agitate for reform, for the good of their nation, if not the good of their own pocket. A related point is the "shortage" of docs: training positions in hospitals are funded by the federal government. Funding which barely crawls. "We have a doctor shortage!" "Will you open new training positions?" "No." "Then..." "No worries, we'll have nurses take some night classes, skip the entirety of actual residency training, and then we can call them doctors, too! We'll just confuse people by telling them they're going to see 'providers', and that way we can avoid paying doctors for doctoring."
There's a lot of other headline bullet points, but most issues in American healthcare boil down to an interaction of the above three.
edit: I should add, big picture, that healthcare isn't magically divorced from the rest of our social ills. As wealth inequality grows, bear in mind two things: (1) wealth correlates to health, and disease burden to correlates to poverty, (2) people can still vote themselves healthcare allocation (i.e., medicaid). The result is that increasingly more disease is concentrated among the increasingly impoverished, which means they're legislatively allocating themselves healthcare ... without the resources to pay for it. Whether or not you like or dislike any of the above, a lot of our issues with hc reimbursement are linked - directly or indirectly - to questions of wealth inequality. Adjusted for inflation, most docs have seen their real income stagnating, hard, for decades - and that's specifically as a result of trying to cheapen them, because they're increasingly paid for with redistributed tax dollars rather than anyone actually buying healthcare.