I Learned French in 12 Months • Hacker News Board

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#261

Post by sacado2 » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 12:40 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #69

raphaelj wrote: post #9

As a French native speaker, I'm a little bit surprised by the corrected text OP posted in her/his article ( http://www.runwes.com/images/learningfrench/image1.png ). Most of the corrections she/he received are not justified at all. Like using the work "crédits" is totally fine in this context. I can't get why they corrected some connectors like "à" or "pour", as the usage of these in the text seem at least as correct…

I'm also a native speaker (France's French if that makes a difference). "Crédits" was replaced by "bons", which means vouchers. In the context that would indeed be the likely correct option (and I never heard "crédits" used that way...) It's grammatically incorrect to write "s'inscrire à une salle de sport" and should indeed be "dans une salle de sport" and so it was warranted to correct that. The other corrections a…

> It's grammatically incorrect to write "s'inscrire à une salle de sport" and should indeed be "dans une salle de sport" and so it was warranted to correct that.

I'm not even sure. If you consider a "salle de sport" is an activity rather than a place, it becomes correct. You would say "s'inscire à la piscine" (for swimming-pool) for instance because "piscine" is considered an activity rather than a place, in this context.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#262

Post by shmat » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 12:47 PM UTC

dlkf wrote: post #250

brendyn wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they do that, they are focusing on the English subtitles and effectively filtering out the Japanese. If they tried to hide the subtitles and only glimpse at them occasionally they would start to see gradual improvement. Many people won't because they'll find they suddenly can't understand most things and it becomes exhausting. by that that's what it's like when you are really learning. That being said it's still…

> I apologise for the "It's both right and wrong at the same time" kind of answer. In summary I believe BTBurke is a fantastic language learner, but if you look closely at what they are doing, you'll see they are providing themselves with plenty of comprehensible input, and the production/output as actually a more minor part that facilitates this input. Language is not a one way street. Being able to manipulate anoth…

Krashen never said that you can learn to speak and write just by listening and reading. He has said that it's a waste of time to speak too early, before you have understood a lot of input. You still have to produce a lot to get better at it. There's also a huge number of studies that show that people who read a lot in their native language speak and write better and studies that show the same effect when learning foreign languages. There's also the practical point that it's useless to be able to speak well if you can't understand the responses you get.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#263

Post by use-net » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 12:54 PM UTC

I don't give a, frankly.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#264

Post by shmat » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 12:56 PM UTC

monster_group wrote: post #199

tmountain wrote: post #108

I've been hacking language learning for about five years, and I've spent ridiculous amounts of time trying and reading about different strategies. I've been to Cuba, Mexico, Spain, and Puerto Rico to try immersion in different settings. Getting to a solid level of competency in a language actually is not that hard. It just requires dedication and consistent practice. That said, native speakers operate on a different…

>> However, walking into a noisy / crowded restaurant where the language is going 100 miles an hour is a totally different scenario. I honestly don't get how people talk in noisy bars and restaurants. I struggle even in English. One almost has to shout in the other person's ear. If it's that close I am thinking more about how my breath smells after having a few drinks rather than topic of discussion - lol.

I read a study that said that in your native language you only need to hear 1/3 - 1/2 of the syllables and your brain will automatically fill in the rest, which is why you can understand conversations in a noisy environment. In a foreign language, unless you've achieved a very high level, you need to hear everything so noisy environments are a problem.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#265

Post by kosievdmerwe » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 12:56 PM UTC

rajlego wrote: post #203

tmountain wrote: post #108

I've been hacking language learning for about five years, and I've spent ridiculous amounts of time trying and reading about different strategies. I've been to Cuba, Mexico, Spain, and Puerto Rico to try immersion in different settings. Getting to a solid level of competency in a language actually is not that hard. It just requires dedication and consistent practice. That said, native speakers operate on a different…

I really like this site [1] because it shows you just how big the gap between native and non-native speakers is. Non-native speakers generally know around 10,000 words while adult native speakers tend to know upwards of 20,000 words. I think the reason that getting to real native level fluency is extremely hard is that they have thousands more hours of input than you do and it's very hard to make up for that in real…

The number of words you have to know to learn a language properly is why it's a daunting proposition to me and why I've stuck with the two I grew up with.

There are 8760 hours in a year. Even if you somehow managed to learn a word an hour, that's still multiple years to get to 20-40k words.

I think we take for granted how many years it takes for kids to learn a language to adult level when we say "kids have an easy time learning languages". It may be easy in that it doesn't require as much conscious study as adults do, but it isn't quick either. Granted mental maturation messes up the time lines, but I think it's hard to argue that it doesn't still take many years.

So depending on what motivates you the time commitment needed at a minimum can be heartening (I'm taking years because there's lots to learn) or disheartening (This is a multi-year endeavor that I'll have to focus on when I could be doing something else).

EDIT: Though reading up on what B2 is, it is a much less daunting proposition, but even C2 doesn't sound like native speaker level, just able to communicate effectively level.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#266

Post by rafaelvasco » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 1:08 PM UTC

abnry wrote: post #187

hombre_fatal wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Getting to a solid level of competency in a language actually is not that hard. It just requires dedication and consistent practice. Though that's why it's hard. Just like eating healthy and exercise isn't hard, just requires dedication, yet notice how few people have a particularly good looking body. The opportunity cost of learning a language is also immense. I've spent an incredible amount of time listening to a…

I am of the opinion that many people who want to learn a language don't have any real reason to learn a second language other than to say they know two languages. Unless you have extended family or somehow became smitten with a foreign country, I am almost certain this is the case. So any attempts are really halfhearted and very little progress is made because the commitment is so large. This is why, if I ever get ar…

Well if you're a native English speaker you could get by ok your entire life without learning another. But if you're not, you're practically obligated to learn it. I would not have the life, nor the knowledge I have today If I hadn't learned English by immersing myself in it;

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#267

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 1:14 PM UTC

namelosw wrote: post #256

BTBurke wrote: post #182

I don't believe there is a shortcut for "hacking" languages. I'm a diplomat, and currently learning my fourth language to the C1+ level. When we learn languages, it's a full time job. It was 9 months to learn Mandarin to a B1, 6 months to a C1+ in Spanish, and I'm currently at a B1 in Estonian after 5 months. There are several things I think are crucial after years of full time study (note: this assumes you're going…

Totally agree on there is no shortcut for "hacking" languages. But at the same time "The quality and type of practice you do matters a lot" as you've said. And also, for learning languages, one way could be significantly less painful than others. I grew up in China, where almost every student struggles so much on English learning, every day. I found myself very easy to pass every exam and beating the average, without…

I grew up in Eastern Europe and had the same experience, ending up speaking English near natively as a kid thanks to watching undubbed cartoons on BBC, Cartoon Network and Fox Kids, Hollywood movies and playing video games.

I thought this was the case across all of Europe but found out that in the rich part of Europe all entertainment is dubbed in the local language so youngsters there had worse English skills than I expected for such wealthy nations.

It's probably one of the reason so many US tech companies have opened up shop here, other than lower wages.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#268

Post by globular-toast » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

I learnt French in about six months. I was able to read the news, Wikipedia, technical journals and and some novels (although this was by far the most difficult). My main motivation was to be able to read French papers for my PhD. I accomplished that goal.

However, I was not able to speak French at all. I actually went to the South of France thinking I'd be able to converse but was immediately disheartened when I couldn't understand the first thing they said and they couldn't even understand me saying the word "tarte" in a patisserie.

My approach to learning to read/write French was simple. First learn the grammar of your mother tongue. If you don't speak a second language, you probably don't know this. Secondly, learn the grammar of the new language by using study materials written in your mother tongue. There is an excellent series of books that covers both of these called English Grammar for Students of X (where X is, French, for example). Thirdly, learn loads and loads of vocabulary (including genders etc if necessary). For this I used Memrise which was excellent at the time (but I think it has regressed since). Then just read a lot.

Things I found not useful at all were Duolingo and Rosetta Stone. They don't teach grammar to adults. They are aimed at babies which is fine if you have ten years to learn this, I guess. There are no shortcuts if you want it to be quicker.

I still know a surprisingly large amount of French after several years, but it's fading. I'd still love to be able to speak it fluently one day. Any advice for getting there?

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#269

Post by bluGill » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 1:27 PM UTC

psychoslave wrote: post #244

BTBurke wrote: post #182

I don't believe there is a shortcut for "hacking" languages. I'm a diplomat, and currently learning my fourth language to the C1+ level. When we learn languages, it's a full time job. It was 9 months to learn Mandarin to a B1, 6 months to a C1+ in Spanish, and I'm currently at a B1 in Estonian after 5 months. There are several things I think are crucial after years of full time study (note: this assumes you're going…

Thank you very much for this feedback. I'm estonished of the fact that you target an on the fly translation to your (presumably) native language. I mean, for me it seems like a far harder task than to note what you understand in the source language directly. Actually, I often find that I can fluently exchange with someone speaking English (which is not my native language), but if a third person ask me to translate, i…

Since he is a diplomat I expect that the ability to translate is sometimes more important that his own understanding. He doesn't directly have power to make decisions, he needs to bring everything back to the leaders of his country. (of course he will know what the goals of his country are and what compromises are acceptable, but his decisions are subject to review)

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#270

Post by ryanmercer » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 1:28 PM UTC

namelosw wrote: post #256

BTBurke wrote: post #182

I don't believe there is a shortcut for "hacking" languages. I'm a diplomat, and currently learning my fourth language to the C1+ level. When we learn languages, it's a full time job. It was 9 months to learn Mandarin to a B1, 6 months to a C1+ in Spanish, and I'm currently at a B1 in Estonian after 5 months. There are several things I think are crucial after years of full time study (note: this assumes you're going…

Totally agree on there is no shortcut for "hacking" languages. But at the same time "The quality and type of practice you do matters a lot" as you've said. And also, for learning languages, one way could be significantly less painful than others. I grew up in China, where almost every student struggles so much on English learning, every day. I found myself very easy to pass every exam and beating the average, without…

Quickly, make a language teaching startup that does so by creating a few genres of video games (that are comparable to others in those genres but also prioritize language acquisition) and actually lure good game designers over.

Then tell me when the product is ready so I can use it.