Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#261

Post by carierx1 » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

radicalbyte wrote: post #200

gylterud wrote: post #109

When we had our first child (in Sweden), we could divide the time (13 months total) freely between the two of us. Then we got some extra money if each of us took more than 30% of that time. I think they stopped with the money bonus, but it was really great for us. We are now having our second child (now in Norway), and while the father quota is great, they now require the mother to be "in activity" (i.e. working) if…

This should be the norm in all of the developed world! As a freelancer I took a self-funded three-month break (it just finished) when our third child was born and it has been amazing. I wish that I'd been in a position to do the same for my other two children too. Firstly, we're trying hard to close the gender pay gap. Giving fathers the same amount of free time as the mothers goes a long way here. Secondly, it's fan…

Excellent point. I've noticed significant cognitive performance drop in new dads as the tremendous stress of your first child drains you. Its important for businesses to incorporate this reality into their planning.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#262

Post by tomp » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

hervature wrote: post #4

> Finland says it wants to "promote wellbeing and gender equality" Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave.

The broader issue is that having/raising children doesn't fit with the otherwise fairly materialistic value system our society has.

Childless women earn just as much as men. Forcing fathers to take family leave does fix the asymmetry between parents (mothers vs fathers), but will exacerbate the difference between parents and non-parents by penalizing not just mothers, but also fathers for having children, vs. non-parents who don't (need to) have a career break.

I think that no discussion/policy about parental leave is complete without some kind of incentive for people to have kids (or a discussion about whether we should encourage that at all or not - looks like it might be sensible in Western countries).

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#263

Post by Jolter » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #240

I'm a dad (of three) and I am not convinced that time spent at the very start of their lives is as significant as that later in their lives (note the "as", I am not saying it has no value!) when you can really nurture their passions, knowledge, etc. I did spend a lot of time with my children in their earliest days because it was the right thing to do, but I don't feel either they or I particularly gained from it (tha…

Swedish parental leave can be saved until the kid turns 12. Not that the 480 days will last that long, of course!

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#264

Post by saiya-jin » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

rglullis wrote: post #239

codingmess wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope - it really is about 20000€ the government gives to families.

"gives" after taking almost double in taxes. And I will surely have more years paying tons of taxes than paternity leaves. Forgive them, Milton, for they don't know what they are saying.

Never fail to mark a net gain for humanity as financially ineffective obstacle. You know there exist some middle ground between dysfunctional socialism and brutal capitalism? Those places are comparably a paradise for common folks like most of us.

To be treated with respect like a human being and having overall a good life is still a privilege in 21st century.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#265

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #241

s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... we are doing this. The President brought it up during the State of the Union. > The Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) requires large organizations to offer employees up to 12 weeks of unpaid leave to care for a new child, sick relative or their own illness. Although a growing number of states have passed or are considering paid family leave laws, there is no nationwide equivalent. https://www.shrm.org/resour…

Yes, I mean paid parental leave, not just parental leave. FMLA doesn't even apply to employers with less than 50 people. There's a handful of states that offer paid parental leave, and even those have many caveats. It's 2020, I bet it will be at least another 4 to 6 years before we have a federal law, and even that will be a couple decades behind other progressive countries.

> under this bill, 2.1 million civilian federal workers also will be able to take paid leave to care for a new baby after birth, adoption or the start of foster care

Currently it's PAID leave for federal workers only, but it's a start.

Contact your senator and tell them it's important to you.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#266

Post by rtkwe » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

kaybe wrote: post #107

weinzierl wrote: post #70

In Germany it is the parents who get the leave and they can freely decide who takes the 12 months of it. Even better yet: If they decide to split they get an extra of two months, so 14 in total.

And it usually ends with the mother taking 12 and the dad taking 2, and these 2 being spent on a longer vacation somewhere. There are many reasons, it seems to me that external circumstances are shaping a lot of them.

Yeah that's a pattern you see in most places with any kind of shared pool. The father takes a small, frequently the legal minimum time, and the mother takes the rest. Ultimately it kind of makes the most sense because it is the woman that's gone through the most work of giving birth and is a natural food source for the kid but it does perpetuate the issue of women's careers being set back by having a kid.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#267

Post by aetimmes » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

zionic wrote: post #228

aetimmes wrote: post #132

I'm a US male who's 1 month into my 6 months fully-paid paternity leave with our first child. My wife has roughly 4.5 months between banked PTO and FMLA/disability leave. I'm sitting at home right now watching/changing/feeding our baby while my wife is out at doctor's appointments taking care of her health. Having the flexibility to practice a modicum of self-care without neglecting the health and happiness of our ch…

6 months paid? Holy cow. Even 1 month would seem like such a luxury to me.

It's been a pretty amazing workplace benefit to have. My wife and I remark to each other on a daily basis about how lucky we are to be able to be home together to take care of the baby. We're planning on having at least one more child and I can't see myself working for a company that doesn't have a similar leave policy.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#268

Post by yeahforsureman » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #240

I'm a dad (of three) and I am not convinced that time spent at the very start of their lives is as significant as that later in their lives (note the "as", I am not saying it has no value!) when you can really nurture their passions, knowledge, etc. I did spend a lot of time with my children in their earliest days because it was the right thing to do, but I don't feel either they or I particularly gained from it (tha…

Agree. I spent five months home with a small toddler of around a year of age. He did get very attached to me, but let's face it, their needs at that stage are very simple. Actually, I think he got much more out of kindie subsequently, getting to play with and be around other kids and adults much more.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#269

Post by isodude » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #40

sudoaza wrote: post #2

Germany has this and is awesome. 14 months paid leave to distribute among the two parents.

I’m curious what what happen if someone wanted to have ten kids and abused this system, and the mother didn’t work. At a gut I feel like I’d be less likely to have kids, not more, if I felt like I was burdening other people by accepting benefits like this. I have no worries as an American having as many kids as I want because I make a good salary, can afford them, and won’t take more than a weeks, maybe two weeks tim…

According to statistics increased education leads to lower number of child births (and later). At least from what I've read.

So it's all connected, free school and good social support.

As a parent you can never make a profit from it anyhow. There are of course people who don't know how to work and actually don't want to contribute. But they are far apart.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#270

Post by socialdemocrat » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #243

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>or independence. Why would you consider it to be an important goal for either parent to have "independence"? What is so wrong with being dependent on your spouse when raising children together that it should even come up as a consideration? Raising children well is hard enough and time consuming enough as it is. Why try to make it harder by also trying to make sure neither parent is dependent on the other?

I agree, I was wondering what kind of incentives governments could create to motivate parents to stay together... The current systems are not just suboptimal, but actively harmful - they make parents enemies, in case of divorce often one "wins" and the other "loses" (depending on the legal system, either the higher-earning parent wins by not really having to pay any child support, or the lower-earning parent wins by…

You must be describing the American system. That does not sound like Norway.