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Education and Men without Work

nationalaffairs.com

261–270 of 342 posts

Re: Education and Men without Work

#261
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem, I think, is that the article seems to believe that the solution is "return to the 1950s". The world has changed. The relationships between men and women have changed. The relationship of the economy to individuals has changed. The article seems predicated on the notion that this number (male participation in the labor force) is the metric that matters, rather than anything about their mental health -- ha…

>The relationships between men and women have changed. The relationship of the economy to individuals has changed. >Well, if only women would return home, there would be more lucrative jobs for men, and more need for the women to be taken care of by a man". That ship has sailed Worth noting that the current changes are explicitly counter to traditional roles which have existed for thousands of years. Yes, appeal sole…

>The unfortunate truth is that the majority of people live their lives according to the norms of their societies - even when such norms have negative overall outcomes.

- People (men and women) are more stressed than ever

- People are reporting less satisfaction with life than ever

- People are increasingly anxious, isolated and suffering from depression

- What once took one person going to work to provide now takes two, and even then many struggle, and childcare is fobbed off on strangers who charge a fortune in a large part due to the premiums they have to pay for other strangers failing to take adequate care of the children fobbed off on them

- Pessimism for the future of the developed world is the highest it has ever been

- Despite living in the greatest economic times, ever, with less inequality than ever, we have classes of people who swear they're more oppressed than ever and are comparing those who disagree with fascists of the past. What optimism people retain is slowly being diminished watching this charade play out

- Men are dropping out of society, are graduating less, working less, are killing themselves, or trying to kill themselves, or are fracturing mentally, becoming homeless and/or turning to drug addicts at a rate we've never seen before

- More women are also experiencing some of the above, despite graduating more than ever, earning more than ever and being more empowered than ever

- Life expectancy in the developed world is starting to drop as people view society as fractured and without purpose, which is manifesting itself in transient, only briefly gratifying greed-fueled hedonism or self-harm and suicide

- The traditional nuclear family has been denigrated, people are now growing up in broken homes - which has terrible outcomes for children who become adults - and on the sidelines of broken homes acting as a warning sign on marriage, coupling, etc.

- Birth rates are, as a consequence, dropping through the floor

- Governments, hell bent on continuous growth at all costs because a drop in growth will bring the economic pyramid scheme they've concocted crashing down, are replacing their now-demoralized, not-breeding-at-replacement-rate populations with immigrants from completely different cultures who, while economically beneficial, have severe consequences on the idea of identity and sense of community in the areas and countries they (understandably) leave their broken home countries for

- The drop in sense of community, shared identity and sense of security is having severe ramifications on the next generation as they're kept indoors, glued to entertainment, while their parents become increasingly politically polarized against their own people

It feels like we're either in the midst of a grand but badly thought out social experiment, intentionally made, whose consequences our ancestors would mock us for, and our descendants loathe us for, or we've been manipulated into a race-to-the-bottom while being told it's good for us by someone or something to gain from it.

Maybe we're living out the Mouse Utopia Experiment for real, and with these NEETs we're now seeing the emergence of the "beautiful ones" while the rest of us chase one another around biting one another without real reason, straddling what little space is available to us, while the mice we've decided to call leaders fret over making us more productive so yet more food and cheap entertainment can be dropped into our laps.

The above may seem pessimistic but none of it is nonfactual. We techies are pretty out-of-touch with the average joe at this point, and while we enjoy the financial success on two incomes to provide the kind of life available to the average family on one income in our grandparent's generation, most cannot.

But we're told this is working. That it's progress. That we should continue on as we have. I ask is it working? Is this actual progress? Should we actually continue in this vein? Because from where I'm standing we've taken values, lessons, structure and understanding developed and passed down over hundreds of thousands of years as we progressed from animals, through pre-humans and to our modern form and have flipped them on their head, denigrated and discarded them at the behest of entities with loud mouths and personal agendas, backed not by science or nature but simply by assertion, and whose "rules" and "norms" seem to change on a whim as every day, week and month passes by.

I'm not saying I have the answers so I'd appreciate people didn't strawman the above, put words in my mouth and find outrage in them, etc.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#262
post #42

There's a very weird "let them eat cake" attitude in this thread which I find distressing. The study reports on the millions of working age men in the US who are essentially too depressed and face too many obstacles to search for work. Instead, they're spending their days staying inside, getting high, and playing video games. They essentially have little to no chance to pursue romantic relationships. Many of them eve…

To give my perspective: I'm a cake-eater. I have a dayjob, but I don't really care about it beyond basic professionalism, and I spend a fair amount of my spare time with cannabis and video games rather than with people. Who cares if my male peers think I'm a loser? Most of them are incompetent mooching pieces of shit, and I don't have to believe in their crab mentality. They can say "loser" all they like. Who cares i…

Bro...

Re: Education and Men without Work

#263
This is a wonderful example of how to lie with statistics. Look at the first graph [0].

Super scary up and to the right line that appears to show our labor force being destroyed over time with no link to economic conditions.

But wait. Look at the scale. This data represents a 6% change over 50 years.

Very weak sauce. Why trust a paper that starts off by deceiving people in such a base way?

[0] https://www.nationalaffairs.com/storage/app/media/Winter%202...

Re: Education and Men without Work

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biologically, humans shouldn't exist in tribes of greater than like 20 people or some small number. Socially, we have countries with millions of people living under one flag. It turns out the hypergamy negatively affects the average man more than the elite man. So how do you build a system the ensures that the vast majority of men don't die off? You must control for hypergamy. Polygamy is a smaller issue, because the…

You have some good points but the Scarlet Letter style conclusion scares me. What I'd like to see is a society that addresses the essential biological needs of men and women without stoning, beheading, drumming up wars or twitter shaming. It's a big project though.

What the parent described is true - that's basic human psychology.

What's new is the scenario he described is playing out in real-life on Tindr now, with roughly those ratios.

And it's not pleasant, as reported in the press. If you're squeamish, I suggest not researching it further.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think people will care until the issue has become large enough that it will start impacting others in society indirectly. Eg not enough tax revenue being generated or not enough men willing to fight in a war.

I would wager that a lot of the people wasting time playing video games all day are precisely the ones who would benefit most from serving in the armed forces. Traditionally that is probably where a lot of them would have ended up.

15 years ago I failed out of computer science at UIUC because I skipped class, got high and played video games all day. Once my parents cut me off, the depression of working dead-end jobs after having such high prospects before led me to enlist in the Navy to try and start over.

Today I’m married with a child, I support my family as the primary breadwinner, I have a BS and MBA and am pursuing a PhD in computer science. All of that education was paid for by the GI Bill.

Sample size of one, but I can confirm your hypothesis.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#266
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What government benefits allows a man to stay at home and not work? Just curious. I have tried to get government benefits when I was unemployed and got nothing but a small amount of unemployment benefits. $275 a week. That doesn't cover anything. No Medicaid or housing help would be given as I did not have children.

$275 a week puts you above the federal poverty threshold, and so, according to the government, is enough to cover basic needs. It is a pittance for HN crowd, but there are tens of millions of people in the US who survive on less than that.

According to Google, the US minimum wage is $7.25. $7.25 * 40 = $290/fulltime week. Tens of millions surviving on less must be an exaggeration?

Re: Education and Men without Work

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But we keep making the world safer and safer and now we are finding out that our culture no longer effectively knows what to do. I can't say I agree with everything in your post, but this assertion is reasonable. I'd say civilization has already discovered a partial solution to this problem: monogamy where men satisfy their evolutionary urges for usefulness through breadwinning. It isn't perfect for everyone but it'…

> I'd say civilization has already discovered a partial solution to this problem: monogamy where men satisfy their evolutionary urges for usefulness through breadwinning. Yes, I agree. Strangely enough, I think outlawing polygamy is probably one of the most profoundly powerful cultural technologies humans have ever invented. So putting this back together with the article, the author is showing how unskilled men are d…

My own anecdotal experience says that not all the dropouts are, by typical definitions, unskilled. It’s a lot more complicated than that, and I believe it is closely connected to psychological factors such as susceptibility to anxiety and depression.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#268
post #96

I don't see why this is such a surprise, most people hate working. I thought it was almost a truism that people work for retirement, i.e. the point in their life when they have enough saved to stop working and just relax and travel or fish or whatever. If there's a way to skip 30 years of working at a job you hate and just start now, most people would take that option. This is the basic problem with basic income, alt…

The problem is balancing two parts of human nature. People like to be rewarded for their effort, some people get horribly depressed without this. The other is that people get their happiness from their wealth relative to those around them. It doesn't seem to matter how much wealth people have if inequality is high. How do you build a system that rewards the hard working but limits inequality while allowing some not t…

Seize the means of production and ensure a ruling government whose core is utilitarianism, comrade xupybd.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#269

Benefits are much more generous and much easier to get in countries with much higher worker participation. And they have the same video games in other countries too. And marriage does not cause entry in the workforce, participation in the workforce is what makes marriage partners more interested. Reduction in benefits has not and is no increasing work participation. There was not spike in worker participation in the…

> And marriage does not cause entry into the workforce You going to cite some evidence of this, or is it just a hot take? My hot take is that after getting married and having a child, the thought of losing my income was terrifying . Obviously we can theorize about causation in both directions, but I would put forth the argument that being married and/or having a family is the single most powerful inducement to mainta…

[deleted]

Re: Education and Men without Work

#270
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think those cavemen would be busy trying to survive and not doing things out of bordem because they have too many real problems to worry about. What your comment reminded me of was Sebastian Junger's book Tribe . One of the central tenets of that book is that people need to feel valued by their tribe/family/society. Lack of this can lead to mental illness. Possibly manifesting as the type of malaise outlined in the…

I don't think plumbers, lineman, etc... are universally looked down on by society. Yes there are some people/communities who do, but there are also people who look down on those who have office jobs, or who do creative work (artists, actors, writers).

True, but the trades typically aren’t pushed as a viable option like “higher status” paths. For decades now, I think the system has pushed the “need” to go to college, regardless of after effects (debt, job prospects etc)
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