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Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

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Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's federally guaranteed student loans that got us here! It wasn't like this for our parents. This comment is an example of how any amount of problems caused by government intervention can be framed as a need for more government intervention.

Government contribution made it possible to get my degree for free basically. We don't have a student loan bubble while still having a pretty high educational standard, even if that suffered in recent years. We might not have the most tenured professors though, since those a drawn to centralize in institution with high prestige. But with the free flow of information today, this centralization of excellence becomes le…

Perhaps, but some things are inherent to how markets work.

It's not surprising that by making a ton of student loan money available, that more students are more willing to spend more money, and thus prices rise.

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#262
I think the student lending fiasco will be far worse than the sub-prime lending crisis. Although the amount of liquid assets and equity in the sub-prime lending debacle was an order of magnitude larger than the student loan crisis, the outcome for the student loan crisis isn't quite so clear yet. Allow me to paint a scenario...

There is a significant difference between the two lending fiascos, but mostly in how the fallout will look. Both the mortgage crisis and the student loan crisis started out as government programs meant to incentivize borrowing. They succeeded, mortgage debt rose 12%/yr in the years leading to the crisis, student loan deb at 11%/yr. Student loan debt now outpaces credit card and auto debt, and is 2nd only to mortgage debt. An increase in easy borrowing lead to higher prices in both cases, in the 10 years leading up to the housing recession, home prices went up 80%. In the last 10 years tuition prices have risen by also 80%. Not a problem if the value of the home or degree continues to rise, but labor income for college grads hasn't grown in 60 years. At all. In fact, if you adjust for inflation there has even been a slight decrease since 1960. Currently 30% of student lending ends up in default, but this number is also growing quickly and projections show this number at 40% by 2025. Sub-prime defaults were around 11% at its peak, so the rates of default for student lending are WAY worse than those of sub-prime mortgage lending, even though the total debt is significantly less. The big problem w/ sub-prime lending was the inability to pay them back (obviously), and same is happening with student loans - due to a lack of underwriting. You can't exactly repossess a degree, and even if you could the value on the 2nd hand market would be null. Filing bankruptcy would make mortgage lending debts go away, but that isn't the case with student loans, which will remain in perpetuity. True, overall mortgage debt was about 10x what student loan debt is at its peak, but there haven't been large derivatives markets set up to eat it like what happened with the mortgage collapse. Since the student lending default overage is going to be WAY more than what the US Government will be able to recoup from Social Security checks or income tax refunds, the person who will ultimately foot the bill for this lending crisis will not be insured banks; it will be you, the taxpayer, and ultimate the economy writ-large. Unless payroll wages somehow magically jump high enough to cover the stagnation we've experienced since the 1960's - unlikely without intervention.

It won't be easy for our economy to recover from this downturn either because the issues will be cultural and systemic. The course-corrective measures would be lenders locking out lower-income families from colleges, which prevents economic mobility and leads to a faster collapse of our middle class. Colleges will maybe drop tuition rates slightly but tuition is largely sticky, unlike housing prices. This may even lead to some colleges going out of business. Loans will likely start to be under-written appropriately, but this means degrees will be prioritized based on earnings potential, which means only a narrow field of study (medical, lawyers, tech, etc) will be eligible for lending. Schools may even price degrees differently, meaning schools will likely trend towards degree programs with the largest earnings potential, to the detriment of many other crucial fields of study. Ultimately college will become an institution to perpetuate a narrow focus of study, and only to those already in positions of wealth - which will further hasten the collapse of our middle class.

The student lending crisis is already having far-reaching economic slowdown implications, from decreased home ownership, higher rental rates, to lower purchasing of goods/services overall; with no clear indication of how to easily course-correct. Not to mention a worsening of cultural and systemic issues already in place. We may not be smart enough to even realize what hit us until it does.

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#263
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Sweden, you pay taxes for healthcare and everyone receives healthcare. In the USA, you pay taxes for healthcare, but only the old and the poor receive that tax funded healthcare. So the average taxpayer has to buy their own health insurance in addition. The linked chart also shows a clear correlation with Purchasing Power Parity, which also should be accounted for.

" So the average taxpayer has to buy their own health insurance in addition." How the money is collected is pretty irrelevant (indirectly via taxes or directly by the insurance company or physician). What matters is the overall cost.

Don't forget profit, and the incentive for insurance companies to care less about what they pay and probably prefer higher prices.

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why was it necessary to change student loans to being non-dischargeable in bankruptcy? That is a recent change and it shifts the burden from banks having to evaluate the loans they are making which would likely mean fewer loans and thus less money earned from interest. It seems like student loans should be treated like any other unsecured loan. And really student loans shouldn’t even be necessary for public universit…

The switch to non-dischargeable loans came along with cutting banks out of the federal student loan system. Non-dischargeable loans are issued and owned by the Department of Education, and only them.

This predated that change. Sallie Mae use to directly fund student loans, now Navient only manages them for the Dept. of Ed.

Edit: forgot to say non-dischargable goes back way before that switch. I have personal experience around 2001, but I'm pretty sure it goes back to the 80's.

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#265
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking has someone who co-runs a hair salon, those numbers don't make sense. $30K should be a reasonable loan compared to how much a single stylist can make annually (easily $50K, up to six figures if they are any good). Just shopfitting a hair salon costs $10-20K. New or relocating salons do that routinely and will expect to recoup it comfortably in the first year.

Why do you need a degree for a "trade" should not the industry have apprentices for that.

They do. In my state you can do a 2 year apprenticeship in cosmetology, but they can be hard to come by. You need to find a stylist willing to not only train you in practical aspects but follow your bookwork and write/grade tests. It's a two-year unpaid commitment. My wife owns a salon and has taken on a couple apprentices. It is a considerable amount of work. Alternatively a beauty school program can be done in a year, then after a six month internship you can get your license. The apprenticeship is the better option but being able to complete your training in a shorter amount of time with a lower barrier to entry is probably appealing.

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's federally guaranteed student loans that got us here! It wasn't like this for our parents. This comment is an example of how any amount of problems caused by government intervention can be framed as a need for more government intervention.

> This comment is an example of how any amount of problems caused by government intervention can be framed as a need for more government intervention. And your comment is an example of assuming that government regulation is at best a necessary evil and something to be avoided if at all possible. Most of western Europe has has regulated university fees for decades, and by all accounts this works pretty well. Public op…

> And your comment is an example of assuming that government regulation is at best a necessary evil and something to be avoided if at all possible.

The role of government regulation is a separate question, but we're really jumping the shark when we can't even acknowledge basic cause and effect.

It's not surprising that government policy making tons of student loan money available led to more students being willing to take out bigger loans. This is like Markets 101.

It's tough to take opponents seriously when basic, predictable side effects of favored policies are ignored just to recommend heavier-handed policies of the same kind.

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The predecessor of the Stafford Loan program was created in 1965, so it was like this for most of our parents. But, the cost of school has outpaced inflation for that period, making the situation worse. No question about that. We'd probably all be better off if the government simply gave grants to students who meet some minimum threshold. Call it top 20% of class or thereabouts.

"cost of school" oh but wait, it's not the cost of tuition as in the people and materials actually involved in it. Just ask any professor. It's the cost of the administration. The cost of facilities. The extortion racket that are mandatory latest editions textbooks. Universities are becoming less about teaching people and more about capturing grants and "selling the experience"

Most of those administrators are there for a reason. Regulatory compliance takes manpower (which costs money). Perhaps we regulating the wrong things, or doing too much of it. But, regulations rarely appear for no reason at all.

Some states are making efforts to curb the costs of textbooks and materials. I'm currently working on software to help CA schools roll out their ZTC programs.[1]

1 - https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/article/2019...

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#268

It seems like the majority of the commenters here are missing the point. The increasing rate of student loan default is not a result of kids who go to a four year college, graduate with an unmarketable degree in philosophy, fall on hard times and then can’t pay their bills. It's kids who go to barber or cosmetology school, take on $30k of debt, then realize they don't make enough money cutting hair to support themsel…

Anecdotal counterpoint - I have an MS degree in information security from a top-tier engineering school that cost me $70k, am gainfully employed, and still have quite a difficult time paying this debt off. So no, this isn't universally true.

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#269

We need to get rid of student loans. The problem is that Universities don't ever need to worry about a student defaulting and can keep increasing the prices of tuition with impunity. If they default, they don't care, because the money is already in the bank. If universities had to worry about students defaulting, they would get rid of bullshit degrees that don't result in an actual job and the prices would come done…

Some universities have started doing income share agreements. They front the tuition cost for a portion of your future income. Depending on your degree program, they will take X percentage for Y years. Purdue was in the news for being one of the first: https://www.purdue.edu/dfa/types-of-aid/income-share-agreeme... Planet Money had a nice podcast about how they work: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/03/29/7081…

This is how student loans in the UK work.

"You’ll repay 9% of your income above the repayment threshold – earn less and you won’t repay. Once you leave your course, you’ll only repay when your income is above the repayment threshold. The current UK threshold is £25,725 a year, £2,143 a month, or £494 a week." [0]

[0]: https://www.ucas.com/student-finance-england/repaying-your-s...

Re: Student Loans a Lot Like the Subprime Mortgage Debacle, Watchdog Says

#270
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then taxpayers should pay for education itself. No reason for taxpayers to become lenders. The real problem is voters want lower taxes, and some genius figured out a way to tout lower taxes and tax payer assistance to students, hence student loan debt. And, inevitably, like all times that society is enabled to pass the buck onto future generations or ignore externalities, society will take and consume all it can unti…

> The real problem is voters want lower taxes, and some genius figured out a way to tout lower taxes and tax payer assistance to students, hence student loan debt. The facts don't support this claim. U.S. government spending on tertiary education is 0.91% of GDP compared to Germany's 1.0% and Japan's 0.45% (source: https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/public-spending-on-educati... ) Rather, university education in the U…

>we would be better off adopting a German style trade school system

We would also need to remove the social stigma that has plagued the trades for the last 30+ years.

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