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We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#261

In software development in particular, the "pipeline problem" has only existed since the 1980s in Western nations. Prior to that, I've heard it said that women were over -represented in software development compared to men (which wouldn't have been a bad thing), or at least that there was much less of a gender gap. I have a theory about why this changed in the 1980's in particular. - The 1980's saw the dawn of person…

Can you provide a source that women outnumbered men in 'software development' before the 80s? I hear it thrown around a lot, and it usually revolves around counting human computers as software developers, which is akin to counting a CPU a software developer.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#262
post #240
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interesting insight. When applying to colleges I never considered applying for CS as I (female) had no programming experience whatsoever, and seemed to be surrounded by people (male) who'd been working on computers for years, ( I'll leave speculation on that for another day ) It was only because they forced EE majors to take programming courses that I ended up in the field. I wrote my first "hello world" as a…

Male here. CS courses were _not accessible_ to those without prior experience, male or female, full stop. That issue was compounded by having to use the IDEs and tooling available to us 10+ years ago. It wasn't until the last year of my business degree I was exposed to the simplicity of .NET/Visual Basic that made programming interesting, fun, and accessible to someone without experience. If only I had that exposure…

I graduated college 20 years ago; everything I learned in college was new for everyone there (I had prior experience in other languages) and we were approximately 50%-50% male to female. From my former colleagues most males work in IT, most females work in other domains, by choice. It was no pipeline problem at that time, but the results are the same: people tend to do what they like and I don't see here (Eastern Europe) too many females that like CS. We have 80% females in marketing and over 60% in sales, how about forcing some of them to do IT instead?

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#263
post #182

The exciting thing if you are a hiring manager is that, as long as there is talent that is being passed-over for the wrong reasons, you can beat your competitors in one of the most challenging ares of building a compay by being good at avoiding this error. A friend noted recently that a compounding benefit of hiring a gender-balanced team early is you won't lose female talent you find later when they refuse to join a…

This is exactly right and why corporate leaders are increasingly focused on diversity as a metric they manage to.

Essentially they have realized that many recruiting and hiring functions are underperforming, in that they are rejecting, or allowing others to reject, talented candidates who they should have hired.

And what they are realizing is that it is much harder than it seems to avoid this kind of error. Which means that even though they can see the opportunity you mention, they're finding that their companies can't seem to seize it.

Generally speaking, everyone involved in hiring is doing their jobs in good faith; there are very few mustache-twirling villains to be found and defeated. But every single person has preferences and biases which, even if essentially harmless on a personal level, can still create significant effects in the aggregate.

So leaders are trying to boot-strap more diverse cultures by managing to the outcome. It's far easier to reward a hiring function for increasing certain metrics of diversity, than tell them something like "be less racist and sexist when hiring." I mean, the vast majority of people would rightly take offense at that kind of guidance from their boss.

The hope is that in the long run, increasing staff diversity produces a broader mix of preferences and biases, which in aggregate reduces the skew against certain talented candidates. As you say: a compounding effect.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#265
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe you are openly racist enough to claim that interviews are unfair because you have to be interviewed by white people (who you would have to work with every day if you were hired). If I said that I was uncomfortable being interviewed by latinos what do you think the reaction would be?

You've broken the site guidelines badly here. Would you please review them and stick to the spirit of this site when posting to HN? Note this in particular: " Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

In this case what is the stronger interpretation? He cites and example of "bias in interviewing" but does not point to any biased action of the interviewers, but rather the fact that they are of a different race, which makes him uncomfortable. The obvious interpretation, that an interview conducted by people of a certain race is inherently biased against him. Calling this "bias in interviewing" also carries the connotation that this is the company's fault and their responsibility to fix. In this case, that they should exclude people from the interview team based on race to reduce interviewee anxiety. If the poster I replied to had only mentioned that he got anxiety around white interviewers without the accusation that this constitutes bias against him I would not have responded that way.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#266
post #248

With such politically charged issues, it's always a problem of people wanting to believe something is possible (and mandatory to pursue) banging their heads against what is true and actually possible. If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% (Google for the facts and stats), how is every company to hit an idealistic goal of 50% representa…

I generally agree with you, but such smart and resourceful companies could do something about it. They are not powerless. Companies used to train internally - watch an older TV show (or even something like Better Call Saul) and see how many characters "worked their way up from the mail room". The death of company loyalty goes both ways but I'm sure it can be mended with some effort. Where I work one of the better pro…

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Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a matter of perspective taking. If a "Never saw a line of code until I took this class" sits between two "Coding since 11" students, they're going to watch their neighbors effortlessly breeze through the curriculum. If they don't know those student's background, it's not unreasonable if they come to the (false) conclusion that they're not cut out to be a developer because it's just so much easier for "everyone e…

Even if you do have a "fast" track and a "slow" track, the only ways I can think of to get travelers on either of these paths to the same place at the same time is to either slow down those on the "fast" track, or speed up those on the "slow" track. What I seem to be witnessing is a willingness of people to slow down those on the "fast" track instead of expecting people on the "slow" track to work harder to catch up.

I went to Pomona College, which shared some CS classes with Harvey Mudd. We also had gender parity among CS majors. I can assure you that everyone admitted to Mudd is whip-smart. There is a strong catalog of courses and the faculty there will find a way to challenge anyone. Nobody at Mudd is getting slowed down. Talk to anyone who has worked with someone who graduated from Mudd and they’ll agree.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#268
post #248

With such politically charged issues, it's always a problem of people wanting to believe something is possible (and mandatory to pursue) banging their heads against what is true and actually possible. If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% (Google for the facts and stats), how is every company to hit an idealistic goal of 50% representa…

I generally agree with you, but such smart and resourceful companies could do something about it. They are not powerless. Companies used to train internally - watch an older TV show (or even something like Better Call Saul) and see how many characters "worked their way up from the mail room". The death of company loyalty goes both ways but I'm sure it can be mended with some effort. Where I work one of the better pro…

Pretty sure this constitutes illegal discrimination under US law?

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#269
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inexperience doesn't equal unintelligence. Making sure that your intro class structure supports people with varying experience levels means you're more likely to engage people with the right interest and capabilities, not less so.

I've never experienced or witnessed a scenario in which trying to support varying levels of experience didn't result in lowering of standards. People with the right interest and capabilities will strive to clear the bar and will not expect the bar to be lowered for them.

Which is why they're creating separate tracks rather than trying to cram everyone into one class.

The people with prior experience can take classes that are suited for their level, and will be challenged rather than bored and resentful of their classmates.

The people without prior experience can ALSO take classes that are suited for their level, and will be challenged rather than intimidated and condescended to by their classmates.Once they have some experience, they can move on to the other classes.

It's a win win for everyone, including the people who through whatever luck or drive have experience before they enter the system. Remember, not everyone has the same access to things like books, computers, and programming classes in earlier environments like high school. Making an actually introductory path helps level the playing field without lowering the bar.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: If not you, then who? Your daughters could be part of a cultural shift with respect to the tech workplace, so why discourage them?

Because you would sacrifice your kid's wellbeing just to make some arbitrary, meaningless statistic look good. And do you think women having to work with computers all day would end up being less grumpy than men who have to do it? Why?

You misunderstood my comment. I said "why discourage them?", not "push them to become programmers". The parent I was responding to made it seem like he/she would want to actively steer their daughter away from programming because of the workplace conditions. But what if their daughter really likes software/tech? You don't want to push her to some other career just because of how you feel about it, she can decide for herself. Software work isn't a lost cause either, it just needs some sanity injected into it, it isn't coal mining or fracking after all.
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