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I am no longer able to use Google with Lynx

blind.guru

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Re: I am no longer able to use Google with Lynx

#261

Post by anthk »

coldtea wrote: post #70
normalnorm wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grammar of the English language does not forbid one to write in Greek, but if you choose to write in Greek only, you will compromise on a lot of people being able to understand you. The same with standards, and you are misunderstanding on purpose. If Google chooses to not support simple HTML, then they are choosing to not support countless accessibility tools, and they know it. Some blind people will have a more…

> The same with standards, and you are misunderstanding on purpose. While I get what you mean, the use of the term "standards" just conflates an orthogonal issue. You can be 100% standards compliant and not readable on Lynx, or 100% standards compliant and readable on Lynx. Relying on JS is not some niche obscure corner or some bypass of the standards as per the English/Greek analogy. It's basically the norm for most…

SPA's are shit for the blind.

Re: I am no longer able to use Google with Lynx

#262

Post by anthk »

duskwuff wrote: post #148
tomcooks wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compatibility with screen readers that blind people use. Moreover, fuck Google and non standard practices in general.

Lynx is not a screen reader. (In fact, it's considerably less accessible to blind users than a typical desktop browser -- as a console application, it has no way to provide accessibility data to a screen reader.) A screen reader is a tool like JAWS or VoiceOver which interacts with desktop software (including web browsers like Chrome or Safari) to provide information about what the user is interacting with.

>as a console application, it has no way to provide accessibility data to a screen reader.)

FFS, you had console screen readers in Linux since forever.

And even OpenbSD, with yasr. It works fine with speech-dispatcher.

Less accesible? Maybe in your limited world, but this is "Hacker" "News".

Well, I guess the new IT generations are even less aware of TTS systems since 1998 or so.

Re: I am no longer able to use Google with Lynx

#263

Post by anthk »

duskwuff wrote: post #150
Apofis wrote: post #106

Google search no longer working with text readers should be an ADA Violation. https://www.ada.gov/complaint/

Lynx is not a screen reader. Screen readers are tools like JAWS or VoiceOver which interact with desktop applications, including desktop web browsers such as Chrome or Safari. Google works fine with these.

And YASR under Linux with lynx/edbrowse works 200000 times better than jaws, starting with a logical layout for the blind.

Re: I am no longer able to use Google with Lynx

#264

Post by mbrukman »

Hi Mario,

I am an engineer on Google Search frontend.

Thank you for posting this, and I'm really sorry and saddened to see this broken; this is certainly not intended behavior.

I've reproduced the issue you described in the blog (Lynx does not allow clicking on the search results page). Even though Google serves valid HTML to Lynx, it's probably HTML that Lynx cannot parse, and since it used to work before, this is a regression. I filed a bug for our team to look further into it and address the root cause.

Interestingly enough, pressing shows a list of links in the current document, and it does show all the available result links, so Lynx does see and parse them, it's just not rendering the links inline with the search results, so that's something we have to investigate as well.

In the meantime, as a temporary workaround, if you're open to using Chrome with a simple UI that would be amenable to a screenreader and keyboard navigation, you can use a User Agent switcher extension by Google [1] to set the user agent header to Lynx [2] and Google will serve the same HTML that it would have served to Lynx. You can then use the key to iterate over the search results, and to select a particular result.

I look forward to seeing this bug resolved, and will be personally following up on the status of this bug.

Again, I'm really sorry to see this, and I hope we'll be able to restore your ability to use Google with Lynx shortly!

[1] https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/user-agent-switche...

[2] https://developers.whatismybrowser.com/useragents/explore/so...

Re: I am no longer able to use Google with Lynx

#265

Post by anonygler »

dredmorbius wrote: post #112

There used to be a saying in a11y circles, "Google is a blind user".[1] Now Google are manifestly anti-blind-user. Shouldn't be anything a major ADA lawsuit couldn't fix. Meantime, DDG is actually pretty damned good. For console users: https://duckduckgo.com/lite ________________________________ Notes: 1. https://www.w3.org/2006/Talks/06-08-steven-web40/

LOL. Do you know how goddamn strict Google is, internally, regarding a11y/i18n/l10n?

The idea that your precious text browser == blind people is wildly presumptuous. Don’t use people with disabilities as your human shield.

Re: I am no longer able to use Google with Lynx

#266

Post by mlang23 »

mbrukman wrote: post #264

Hi Mario, I am an engineer on Google Search frontend. Thank you for posting this, and I'm really sorry and saddened to see this broken; this is certainly not intended behavior. I've reproduced the issue you described in the blog (Lynx does not allow clicking on the search results page). Even though Google serves valid HTML to Lynx, it's probably HTML that Lynx cannot parse, and since it used to work before, this is a…

Thanks a lot for this positive reply! I am thrilled to read that this might be counted a regression and actually fixed. I really hope that can happen.

Regarding 'L', Lynx sometimes "hides" links if the anchor is around a div. Maybe it is just that simple. IIRC, ... will trigger a similar behaviour.

Regarding your Chrome suggestion, that really doesnt help me much since I spend 99% of my workday on a plain virtual console. The context switch of moving to another computer that runs Windows for simple searches is really not practical.

Again, thanks for spotting this and acting on it!

Re: I am no longer able to use Google with Lynx

#267

Post by mlang23 »

duskwuff wrote: post #140
dredmorbius wrote: post #112

There used to be a saying in a11y circles, "Google is a blind user".[1] Now Google are manifestly anti-blind-user. Shouldn't be anything a major ADA lawsuit couldn't fix. Meantime, DDG is actually pretty damned good. For console users: https://duckduckgo.com/lite ________________________________ Notes: 1. https://www.w3.org/2006/Talks/06-08-steven-web40/

Blind users do not, as a rule, use Lynx. This is a common misconception. The Lynx interface is, in fact, very poorly suited for visually impaired users, as it relies heavily on visual layout, color, and cursor positioning to convey information. The majority of blind users use standard desktop web browsers with screen reader addons like JAWS or VoiceOver.

You are falling for a pretty common misunderstanding. While many blind people use text-to-speech in combination with a classical "screen reader", that is not the end of the story. There is another major technology called Braille. And in countries where there is a good social system, blind people actually own so-called Braille displays. That applies to me, for instance. I am pretty much a pure braille user. Sometimes, when I use a Windows machine, speech will rumble along, but I really primarily rely on what I can feel beneath my fingers. And for braille display users, Lynx is really a nice option.

Re: I am no longer able to use Google with Lynx

#268

Post by commandersaki »

mlang23 wrote: post #267
duskwuff wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blind users do not, as a rule, use Lynx. This is a common misconception. The Lynx interface is, in fact, very poorly suited for visually impaired users, as it relies heavily on visual layout, color, and cursor positioning to convey information. The majority of blind users use standard desktop web browsers with screen reader addons like JAWS or VoiceOver.

You are falling for a pretty common misunderstanding. While many blind people use text-to-speech in combination with a classical "screen reader", that is not the end of the story. There is another major technology called Braille. And in countries where there is a good social system, blind people actually own so-called Braille displays. That applies to me, for instance. I am pretty much a pure braille user. Sometimes,…

I used to be legally blind and heavily vision impaired. Even then, the most accessible web browser is Lynx since it runs in a Terminal which has a fixed and rigid UI.

I'm frustrated for you.

Re: I am no longer able to use Google with Lynx

#269

Post by TeMPOraL »

shadowgovt wrote: post #250
TeMPOraL wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am serious. Yes, it's true it's easier than ever to create sophisticated websites. But it's also true that almost all this sophistication delivers negative value to users - it distracts them, slows them down, and forces them to keep buying faster hardware. It doesn't have to be like this - but it currently is . It's not even just a problem of explicit business incentives - the technical side of the industry has bee…

This sounds like the kind of argument that would have said that the algorithm for rounded rectangles in the Mac OS toolbox was superfluous fluff. The world is bigger and more interesting than screens and screens of uninterrupted plaintext.

Rounding rectangles is superfluous fluff, but it also is nice, and serves a purpose in the context of the whole design language they're using. I'm not against rounding rectangles and other such UI fluff in general. But I am against throwing away perfectly working controls, with all the ergonomy their offer, and replacing it with a half-broken, slower version of that control that only works if you use it in one particular way, but hey, it has rounded rectangles now.

Re: I am no longer able to use Google with Lynx

#270

Post by pnako »

UncleMeat wrote: post #75
dotancohen wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A faster horse. People value privacy when made aware of the issue, but very few people are aware of how websites track (and manipulate) them.

I feel like this claim needs support. All of the studies I'm aware of that ask people to choose between different price points based on privacy end up showing minimal valuing of privacy.

Did those studies gave the big picture about privacy?

Why is it that people working in the field tend to be paranoid about privacy, and people outside are not? It can't be that we are just on average more paranoid. It's more likely that we know exactly how this data can be aggregated, stored forever, analysed in the future with capabilities that don't exist yet, etc. I think most people don't understand privacy in those terms.

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