Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#261

Post by xyzzyz » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 9:23 PM UTC

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #255

jansan wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that the best selling passenger vehicles are not called "car" in the US statistics, but "light trucks". The number of light trucks sold in September 2019 is almost three times the number of "passenger cars". https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/salesfig...

I can't find the right reference, but I remember that such "light trucks" (e.g. Ford F150) enjoy a different tax and tariff compared to cars, and that's why several car companies have pushed them to the market.

The tariff is on foreign imports, which results in domestic trucks being privileged over foreign ones. It has nothing to do with customers choosing light trucks over cars, and if anything, it should rather incentivize customers buying cars over trucks, as there's more competition there, and so presumably lower prices.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#262

Post by jacquesm » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #239

lettergram wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently average price per gallon in Norway is $7.06[1]. Today, I paid $2.42 for gas in rural Illinois. So 3x, but I also pay less for electricity in general, so idk if it pays off. I probably spend around $1500/year on gas with my 17-25mpg Jeep. Honestly, Tesla really still can’t compete with the fact I have to haul stuff and drive a few hundred miles. so not an option for me anyway. [1] https://www.globalpetrolpr…

It's amazing to me as an American how little need Europeans have for large American-style vehicles. I see Audi station wagons in Switzerland pulling horse trailers (with horses in them), doing 100mph on the freeway. In the US, anyone who pulls a horse trailer once a year would have a dualie diesel HD3500 with exhaust stacks, as their daily driver.

I'm still mildly ok with that. But what really gets me is the same dualie diesel with a single occupant and an empty bed towing absolutely nothing.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#263

Post by gok » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #260

As soon as the tax situation normalizes this will drop back down again. There is simply a limited time for people to act and get the full benefit of buying an electric vehicle. This situation happens over and over again in different places in the world whenever a particular tax advantage is about to end.

That was also expected in the US but sales are up as the incentives have phased out. (BEVs in general, not just Tesla)

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#264

Post by steelframe » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

kjksf wrote: post #225

steelframe wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> considering both the fire-safety Some people may jump on you about the fire-safety of Tesla cars (or BEVs in general), but I want to get ahead of that with a link to the Highway Loss Data Institute's December 2018 report for 2016-2018 motor vehicles, where the Tesla Model X had a RCF (Relative Claim Frequency) of 192, the second-worse score for vehicles in its class, and the Tesla Model S had a RCF of 140, the wors…

There's lies, damn lies and statistics. Yes, Model X (at 192) is second highest in its class. It's also better than any passenger car in top 10 (lowest at 204) and better than any pickup truck in top 10 (lowest at 205). So if we care about fire safety, we should replace every passenger car and pick up with the "terrible" Model X. Also worth noting that, to my knowledge, there wasn't a single non-crash fire in Model 3…

> Also worth noting that, to my knowledge, there wasn't a single non-crash fire in Model 3

Before the HLDI report came out, were you aware that there were 20 insurance claims for non-crash fires between the Model S and the Model X over 2 years of time?

Not everybody goes running to social media when their car catches on fire. Perhaps we should wait until the next HLDI report comes out for 2019-2020 before we make presumptions about how often the Model 3 catches fire.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#265

Post by elygre » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 10:03 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #167

4gotunameagain wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a car, and an expensive one. Very few people would base their decision only on the tax incentives.

In Norway every single person buying a new car makes the decision based on tax incentives to a large extent.

As a (fellow?) Norwegian, I beg to differ. Some of us thinks electric cars are both great cars and environmentally friendly, and make buying decisions based on those two.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#266

Post by vkou » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

cloudwalking wrote: post #171

xyzzyz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s no surprise, since Norwegian government heavily penalizes ICE vehicles, and advantages the electric cars. No VAT, no CO2 tax, and lots of other incentives are involved. If your goal is to upgrade your country’s vehicle fleet to electric, then Norway is a good example that with enough government spending it can happen. Don’t mistake it for “normal people jumping onboard electric train”, though, they are jumping…

Model 3 appears to be the #6 best selling car in USA last quarter* and I don't believe there is much of any USA tax incentive anymore. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/06/tesla-model-3-6th-best-...

Note that every other auto manufacturers has multiple models that they offer in the 'upper-middle-range sedan' price range.

Tesla offers one. Of course its per-model numbers are going to be higher, compared to its marketshare.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#267

Post by caf » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 10:20 PM UTC

jansan wrote: post #222

cloudwalking wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Model 3 appears to be the #6 best selling car in USA last quarter* and I don't believe there is much of any USA tax incentive anymore. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/06/tesla-model-3-6th-best-...

Keep in mind that the best selling passenger vehicles are not called "car" in the US statistics, but "light trucks". The number of light trucks sold in September 2019 is almost three times the number of "passenger cars". https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/salesfig...

That really reinforces the root comment's point about fashions in vehicle choice / driving what everyone else does being the 'safe option'. The countries most similar in culture and affluence to the US don't seem to buy those passenger utility vehicles and passenger cars in nearly the same proportions, so fashion looks like a big part of vehicle choice.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#268

Post by ClumsyPilot » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 10:25 PM UTC

jillesvangurp wrote: post #77

hnarn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, around 40% of the electricity in Germany was generated from coal in 2018, but in january 2019, a group of federal and state leaders as well as industry representatives, environmentalists, and scientists made an agreement to close all 84 coal plants in the country by 2038.[1] Just as in many other parts of the world, expanding electrical consumption through electric vehicles does not make sense if we also…

Germany is not building new coal plants so they are not going to burn more coal because of EVs. EVs indeed create more demand for electricity, which is met by deploying more clean energy. Coal plants stopped being a good option economically decades ago and we are now getting to the point where keeping the existing plants going is also no longer economical. Gas plants are following pretty soon as well.

People forgot that there is loads on unused grid and generation capacity at night that could be used for EV charging.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#269

Post by gnicholas » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 10:26 PM UTC

jjav wrote: post #234

cj wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, price of gas is 2.5x higher in Norway than somewhere like the USA. If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in gas. And that's how much you'd save in gas if you went electric. In areas with higher fuel prices, the incentive is proportionally larger. (That's ignoring the cost of paying your electric bill, not sure if that changes the math much..)

> (That's ignoring the cost of paying your electric bill, not sure if that changes the math much..) If we ignore the cost of gas, it'll also change the math... Needless to say, need to include all costs for a fair comparison. A few years ago when my wife had a Fiat 500e and I was commuting on a 1988 Honda CRX (~40 mpg). The energy cost was higher for the Fiat than the Honda at the time. (Electricity is very expensive…

I’m also in CA, and I ran the numbers on my plug-in C-MAX. It is roughly a wash (and the gas mileage is pretty unimpressive, at 35 MPG). It’s convenient to never have to go to the gas station (we average 110 MPG overall), but it’s sad that there’s no savings/incentive to actually be on electric with this vehicle).

It could be different for other vehicles that are more efficient (don’t have ICE components to lug around), or for people with their own solar charging.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#270

Post by martinald » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 10:26 PM UTC

tyfon wrote: post #104

mogadsheu wrote: post #4

>The Dutch numbers are inflated by lavish incentives. In the next fiscal year, the incentives in the UK will be even more lavish. Norway was an early adopter of large subsidies/driving perks for EVs. It looks like other countries are following suit. This obviously bodes well for Tesla—-I wonder if anybody has insight about what this could mean for Chinese EVs if they make it to Europe.

There are basically no subsidies for EVs in Norway, only tax relief. The government is not paying anyone to use EVs. Some municipals have free public charging stations but that's up to the locals to decide.

Tax relief is pretty much exactly the same as subsidies though. If the Norwegian govt didn't bother doing EV tax relief, they would get another x billion NOK in taxes sitting in the treasury. It's no different to giving the billions of NOK as a discount on the purchase price like other countries.