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Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

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Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#261
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general idea was that pilots would correctly recognize large amounts of undesired and uncommanded trim being runaway trim and perform the checklist to resolve that issue that they are expected to know by memory, since there is a need to execute it fast, without paging through the Quick Reference Handbook. This is not a checklist that was introduced with the 737 MAX, but one that has existed since the introduction…

I just want to say thank you for you great replies throughout this thread. There is too much simplification of this incident everywhere in the media, and even in technical circles to "Boeing put out a horrible design because of cost cutting that killed people". These are things I've tried to explain, but you put it much more eloquently.

Its really the most tedious thing I've ever done. Everyone here wants to pick apart my arguments because they want Boeing to be the only culpable party, or want MCAS to be the only reason why the planes crashed.

This is wrong, it is unethical to approach engineering a system like this. In investigating these crashes, all the failures that lead up to the accident must be identified, all of the possible solutions must be explored. Sometimes its an easy fix, sometimes like United 173 we have to change the whole culture inside the cockpit to fix the problem (Cockpit Resource Management). Sometimes the solution wont show up until years later, so accidents from decades prior are used to formulate solutions to problems that had not been solvable until the right technology, either hard mechanical technology like hydraulic fuses, or physiological technology like CRM, comes along.

I feel like this attitude that there's only one thing to fix every time something goes wrong is why we see colossal fuckups in the software and infosec industries and I think that needs to change. System failures require systematic solutions, not just some quick fix or patch.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#262
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but 737's have crashed before from crews getting the nose too high on departure, so... arguably the entire 737 fleet would benefit from a "proper" MCAS. The people who built MCAS thought they were taming a 737 handling weakness that was worsened by the new engines. Again-- a normal kind of thing to have to work on when stretching jets.

Not stalling on takeoff is pilot 101. If an aircraft is prone to it I personally do not want layers of software hiding the issue. It's practically a law of nature that software is full of bugs.

> Not stalling on takeoff is pilot 101

So is trimming the stabilizer.

Boeing was proven wrong by the two crashes but it's not a priori obvious that pilots wouldn't know to manually trim the stabilizer and then pull the cutout after MCAS kept kicking in.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#263
post #84
post #62

This seems like a good thing, they should be testing with people who don’t know the answers. Though I can’t help but wonder if this is a very subtle re-framing of the Max accidents to shift blame back towards pilots. This approach of a regulatory agency recommending “average pilot” testing makes both the agency and Boeing look good, and tends to downplay the fact that Boeing intentionally avoided training the pilots,…

>Though I can’t help but wonder if this is a very subtle re-framing of the Max accidents to shift blame back towards pilots. Blame is a loaded word. Boeing assumed that pilots could be relied upon to recover from a MCAS induced runaway trim. Practice has shown that they can't. Whether Boeing or the pilots is at fault is, from a safety perspective, irrelevant. The bottom line is that an assumption was made, it was wro…

> Using average pilots instead of highly experienced test pilots is a sensible step to prevent a repeat.

Or a good way to kill average pilots.

How about using highly skilled pilots, but failing a plane when anything unusual happens?

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#264
post #147
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reports like the one where the plane started descending when autopilot was engaged are still relevant because they indicate issues with the angle of attack sensor, which is also what MCAS relies on.

AoA sensors are notoriously unreliable and Boeing should not have depended on just one.

Yes, definitely.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#265
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think that’s an appropriate level of analysis for the manufacturer of a brand new MCAS? “Any failure of this new thing we’re shipping is just a trim failure, pilots can handle it”?

With the benefit of hindsight it looks obviously wrong, but without that the reasoning looks sound to me. IMHO, the failure lies in validating the analysis with realistic test conditions. They should be testing their assumptions against the worst pilots, not the best.

The problem with their testing wasn't just that they tested against the best pilots. They simulated MCAS failure as just the stabilizer trim running away, which of course their test pilots caught. Real-world MCAS failures were accompanied by a bunch of warnings about loss of accurate airspeed and altitude (because those also used the angle-of-attack sensor), which meant that in reality pilots were occupied trying to sort through that and figure out if any of the conflicting airspeed and altitude readings could be trusted. That is, as I understand it, hard enough to deal with and demanding enough on its own that even well-trained Western pilots screw it up, occasionally with tragic results. Then whilst all that's happening they're meant to notice that the trim wheel is moving in an uncommanded and unwanted fashion, turn electric trim off, and manually wrestle the trim wheel back into the correct position (whatever that even is). Boeing didn't simulate any of those added complications according to the NTSB.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not stalling on takeoff is pilot 101. If an aircraft is prone to it I personally do not want layers of software hiding the issue. It's practically a law of nature that software is full of bugs.

> Not stalling on takeoff is pilot 101 So is trimming the stabilizer. Boeing was proven wrong by the two crashes but it's not a priori obvious that pilots wouldn't know to manually trim the stabilizer and then pull the cutout after MCAS kept kicking in.

Yah. If I'm holding massive backpressure on the yoke, my thumb is on the trim switch to ease that up.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#269
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

0. They added software hack (keeping their cert) to use engines on a aircraft not desinged for them.

I strongly disagree with this one being a real link in the chain. OK, we put bigger engines on. The 737 is kinda already sporty and easy to get the nose too high on departure. Now it's a little worse with bigger engines. This is part and parcel for what happens when you stretch planes, adapt new engines, etc; there are minor, associated design changes you need to make to improve handling, etc. Software is a reasonabl…

You seem quite knowledgeable.

You disagree with the statement that roughly the urge to avoid recertifying pilots caused Boeing to not mention MCAS even in manuals, leading directly to these deaths? Because from my pov, Boeing introduced a new failure mode (MCAS failure leading to intermittent forcing of the nose down) without any warning to the pilots.

Now maybe the pilots' standard training should have compensated, and there are obviously maintenance or training deficiencies, but Boeing also knew good and well they were selling planes to pilots with these existing training deficiencies. And should have designed a plane to be operated by real world pilots.

Very curious for your thoughts; thank you!

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